Why Do Poor People Vote As If They Are Rich?

[oldoregon]

Why do you automatically take the statements of others and assume they apply globally? Besides, if just "one" major corporation were evil, how would propose to deal with it other by regulation?

The vast majority of people will never, ever, even consider committing murder. Why then do we bother with a law against it?

[TennisMom]

It's kind of like the way people associate the name 'Charles Manson' with murder.

In all seriousness, a lot of damage has been done in this world by corporations. The term 'monarchy' also has negative connotations for much the same reason.

Good old King Leopold of the Belgians went into parts of Africa with his corporate backers, resulting in unspeakable things done to that country and its people in the name of progress.

Lawyers have figured out ways to set up 'dummy corporations' in order to hide profits and deflect liability when mishaps occur.

Business schools teach useful practices but are short on ethics courses. There isn't much demand for them.

[root]

TM wrote : "There is nothing charitable, responsible or altruistic about corporations. It is all about profit. Beginning, middle, end. In today's globally competitive world, ruthlessness is more important than ever.”

Well said.

[root]

Big Business is not out for you or me, or the American way. They are out for big business. That's fine. That's capitalism. But every force needs an equal and opposing force to keep it from running roughshod. That opposing force is government

This is a perennial theme in history. Power struggles between king and barons go back at least to the Plantagenets in England, most notably in the reign of King John, culminating in the signing of the Magna Carta nearly 800 years ago. The rights the king was forced to cede to "free men" applied mostly to the nobility. Nowadays, the citizens or electorate play a role in the discourse: the central government ("king") and big business ("barons") each strive to prove that their side has the public interest most at heart.

No one ever gives up power voluntarily, and it has taken centuries to get the average person as much power as he/she now has. The conservatives and the liberals are both on the right track when they focus on breaking up obscene concentrations of power. The balance lies in maintaining enough of a power base in the government to ensure the orderly operation of society.

I disagree that we have more power now than ever, if you meant that because you didn’t say that explicitly. Our power as the people and not the elite is falling fast and has been for several decades. What we do have is a growing awareness that could lead to power if we take it.

Time is of the essence.

Did you read the articles I linked to?

Let us hope that we act before the heartless beast has us on a death bed or a death grip.

What is the path towards (if I can say such a out of style thing) Power To The People?

[GoCometsGo]

TM wrote : "There is nothing charitable, responsible or altruistic about corporations. It is all about profit. Beginning, middle, end. In today's globally competitive world, ruthlessness is more important than ever.”

Well said.

Many, many corporations donate to charity and in fact many charities themselves are incorporated. Even if a corporation did operate solely for profit... what is wrong with that? This world revolves around commerce. Businesses are formed by people with the vision and the capital and the willingness to take on risk in order to participate in the commerce of the world. So many good business ventures would never have seen the light of day without the personal protection offered by the corporate veil. Sometimes I wonder if people even know what the definition of "corporation" is.

[root]

TM wrote : "There is nothing charitable, responsible or altruistic about corporations. It is all about profit. Beginning, middle, end. In today's globally competitive world, ruthlessness is more important than ever.”

Well said.

Many, many corporations donate to charity and in fact many charities themselves are incorporated. Even if a corporation did operate solely for profit... what is wrong with that? This world revolves around commerce. Businesses are formed by people with the vision and the capital and the willingness to take on risk in order to participate in the commerce of the world. So many good business ventures would never have seen the light of day without the personal protection offered by the corporate veil. Sometimes I wonder if people even know what the definition of "corporation" is.

What you say is not false for the most part.
Solely for profit forgets the human element that they were created to serve.
The world revolves around money making as you say.
Would it be better if is revolved around humanity instead?
People are corporations. Yet within the corporations they often act as if the profit motive is greater than the human motive.

As a business person at various levels, and of education in business management, I think I understand a little bit about what being a corporation means legally. My experience tells me more about what it means in reality.

There are some good business people and corporations out there. They are the minority though.

You have trusted some of what I have said in the past GCG. I say this, in my experience, and from what I see in the world, most capitalist business structures, typified by the corporation, have been only interested in profits. Humans always have come second. Right or Wrong we don't even place in the decision process.I have seen too many horrible things to count when just a dollar or two could have made a huge difference to the human workers. It was always a question not about what is right, even for the business in the long run, but what can we save/make now. Usually it is the share price driving these decisions.

The future ecology is usually something to cover up. it just doesn't make any money.

If you have any doubts, then research the actual papers of incorporation of any corporation. Profit and return is #1. Where in there incorporation does it say people matter other than being a means of retaining profits?

You may work for a fine corporation and a great man. Wonk may have too. But I have not. Actually I did once. Then he wanted to retire and the sharks came in. They took all the money, invested elsewhere personally, and bankrupted the place. They took the founder's, my and my co-workers investments, and ran off.
My experience has been about 25 years in the Silicon Valley. I know that place well. I suspect the rest of the modern world is no different. There used to be a time that the Silicon Valley was an example of the worst. Now it is the norm.


I think you are lucky perhaps with a well meaning boss. Trust me, It is a rarity these days.

I don't want to punish businesses for the past. I just want to see justice on a looking forward basis. You believe in justice don't you?

And of course I am refer to for profit business. Non profits fall into a whole other point of discussion.

[oldoregon]

Sometimes I wonder if people even know what the definition of "corporation" is.

I thought they were people, just like us. Don't be such a corporationist. Discrimination is ugly.

[GoCometsGo]

TM wrote : "There is nothing charitable, responsible or altruistic about corporations. It is all about profit. Beginning, middle, end. In today's globally competitive world, ruthlessness is more important than ever.”

Well said.

Many, many corporations donate to charity and in fact many charities themselves are incorporated. Even if a corporation did operate solely for profit... what is wrong with that? This world revolves around commerce. Businesses are formed by people with the vision and the capital and the willingness to take on risk in order to participate in the commerce of the world. So many good business ventures would never have seen the light of day without the personal protection offered by the corporate veil. Sometimes I wonder if people even know what the definition of "corporation" is.

What you say is not false for the most part.
Solely for profit forgets the human element that they were created to serve. I 100% disagree. They were not created to serve "the human element."
The world revolves around money making as you say.
Would it be better if is revolved around humanity instead? That sounds wonderful. But its fantasyland, IMHO.
People are corporations. Yet within the corporations they often act as if the profit motive is greater than the human motive. Corporations can make a profit. Let the shareholders worry about human motives.

As a business person at various levels, and of education in business management, I think I understand a little bit about what being a corporation means legally. My experience tells me more about what it means in reality.

There are some good business people and corporations out there. They are the minority though.

You have trusted some of what I have said in the past GCG. I say this, in my experience, and from what I see in the world, most capitalist business structures, typified by the corporation, have been only interested in profits. Humans always have come second. Right or Wrong we don't even place in the decision process.I have seen too many horrible things to count when just a dollar or two could have made a huge difference to the human workers. It was always a question not about what is right, even for the business in the long run, but what can we save/make now. Usually it is the share price driving these decisions.

The future ecology is usually something to cover up. it just doesn't make any money.

If you have any doubts, then research the actual papers of incorporation of any corporation. Profit and return is #1. Where in there incorporation does it say people matter other than being a means of retaining profits?

You may work for a fine corporation and a great man. Wonk may have too. But I have not. Actually I did once. Then he wanted to retire and the sharks came in. They took all the money, invested elsewhere personally, and bankrupted the place. They took the founder's, my and my co-workers investments, and ran off.
My experience has been about 25 years in the Silicon Valley. I know that place well. I suspect the rest of the modern world is no different. There used to be a time that the Silicon Valley was an example of the worst. Now it is the norm.


I think you are lucky perhaps with a well meaning boss. Trust me, It is a rarity these days.

I don't want to punish businesses for the past. I just want to see justice on a looking forward basis. You believe in justice don't you?

And of course I am refer to for profit business. Non profits fall into a whole other point of discussion.

root,

I have been employed by several types of entities. Large corps. Small corps. Individuals. I've even owned a small S-corp. All of them were in business to profit. None of them were evil. My current employer is no more or less well-meaning than any of the others. He has a business that he has been involved with for years. He would like to see it prosper so that he can one day pass it along to his kids. His motives for the success of his business are different than mine yet they overlap. Its a small business trying to turn a profit. There's nothing evil about that.

[oldoregon]

With you it is all black and white. Do you think corporations can, upon occasion, act selfishly and counter to the public's best interest. And just so you are not confused, I am referring to



SOME CORPORATIONS, A CORPORATION, but certainly not all corporations.

[GoCometsGo]

With you it is all black and white. Do you think corporations can, upon occasion, act selfishly and counter to the public's best interest. And just so you are not confused, I am referring to



SOME CORPORATIONS, A CORPORATION, but certainly not all corporations.

Never said they couldn't. I just don't believe that its nearly as pervasive and you and some others do. It's you and TM that seemed to want to throw ALL corporations under the "evil" banner.

I've been pointing out that its my firm belief that most corporations are merely small businesses trying to turn a profit. Where did I ever say that no corporations ever do anything wrong?

And for the record... I have no problem if a corporation acts selfishly and in its own best interest. They are not formed to serve the public. They are formed to serve their investors. They should be held to legal standards and made to do their business fairly and ethically. Government oversight is fine. Tax them in order to pay for that oversight. But public's best interest? Nope.

[oldoregon]

Never said they couldn't. I just don't believe that its nearly as pervasive and you and some others do. It's you and TM that seemed to want to throw ALL corporations under the "evil" banner.

I've been pointing out that its my firm belief that most corporations are merely small businesses trying to turn a profit. Where did I ever say that no corporations ever do anything wrong?

And for the record... I have no problem if a corporation acts selfishly and in its own best interest. They are not formed to serve the public. They are formed to serve their investors. They should be held to legal standards and made to do their business fairly and ethically. Government oversight is fine. Tax them in order to pay for that oversight. But public's best interest? Nope.

Don't be simple...of course I (nor TM) have ever said that we should throw ALL corporations under anything. Corporations serve a function of aggregating capital and allowing shared risk (and shared profit). That was the point. The problem is that Free Hand is no longer such, as some corporations have become so large that they in effect create their own rules. Years past. consumers had choice, and power. If I didn't like Wal-Mart's prices or business practices I could shop elsewhere. I do, but its getting harder and harder as ever larger corporations concentrate power, impact the supply chain, and drive the competition out, leaving the consumer without choice. REGULATION, by government, used to assure that consumers retained choice. REGULATION used to assure that corporations didn't rape their workers in the name of profit. REGULATION used to make it difficult for corporations to off-shore jobs, and leave their workers, and their consumers, to fend for themselves. When too many corporations (or even ONE large corporation) so control their market, REGULATION assures that they divest to maintain fair competition. Remember Ma Bell? Think consumers (and capitalists) have done alright by its breakup through regulation? Wonder if the same treatment might work in some other areas, from Home Depot to insurance?

Your vision of public interest in narrow and uninformed. Perhaps you ought read some about how regulation in this nation worked before Ronnie Reagen sold the public a bill of goods and kissed off the manufacturing sector.

[GoCometsGo]

Never said they couldn't. I just don't believe that its nearly as pervasive and you and some others do. It's you and TM that seemed to want to throw ALL corporations under the "evil" banner.

I've been pointing out that its my firm belief that most corporations are merely small businesses trying to turn a profit. Where did I ever say that no corporations ever do anything wrong?

And for the record... I have no problem if a corporation acts selfishly and in its own best interest. They are not formed to serve the public. They are formed to serve their investors. They should be held to legal standards and made to do their business fairly and ethically. Government oversight is fine. Tax them in order to pay for that oversight. But public's best interest? Nope.

Don't be simple...of course I (nor TM) have ever said that we should throw ALL corporations under anything. Corporations serve a function of aggregating capital and allowing shared risk (and shared profit). That was the point. The problem is that Free Hand is no longer such, as some corporations have become so large that they in effect create their own rules. Years past. consumers had choice, and power. If I didn't like Wal-Mart's prices or business practices I could shop elsewhere. I do, but its getting harder and harder as ever larger corporations concentrate power, impact the supply chain, and drive the competition out, leaving the consumer without choice. REGULATION, by government, used to assure that consumers retained choice. REGULATION used to assure that corporations didn't rape their workers in the name of profit. REGULATION used to make it difficult for corporations to off-shore jobs, and leave their workers, and their consumers, to fend for themselves. When too many corporations (or even ONE large corporation) so control their market, REGULATION assures that they divest to maintain fair competition. Remember Ma Bell? Think consumers (and capitalists) have done alright by its breakup through regulation? Wonder if the same treatment might work in some other areas, from Home Depot to insurance?

Your vision of public interest in narrow and uninformed. Perhaps you ought read some about how regulation in this nation worked before Ronnie Reagen sold the public a bill of goods and kissed off the manufacturing sector.

You are talking about the mega corps and I've been talking about the small businessman. You want me to hate the evil WalMarts of the world. Fine I do. But I don't want to see the small businessman get beat to death under the "anti-corporation" mantra.

TM said in this very thread that all corps are evil.

Why do people always assume that the "haves" deserve it, got it ethically, earned it on a level field and that it is only through their own savvy and hard work trimuphed. "Haves" are no more or less morally superior than the "have nots?"

I guess for the same reason that some people assume that all corporations are big businesses and all big businesses operate unethically and immorally.

It's called ignorance.

Wrong, GoCo. It's called 'reality'.

root seems to feel the same as TM with a few exceptions.

They seem to be against corporations simply because they are corporations... sure as hell looked as if you were in that same boat.

BTW oldoregon.... I'm getting weary of being labeled as "simple" or "stoopid" by you. Stuff your attacks if you want any further responses from me.

[root]

My post, carefully considered, is gone.

Later I will make another.

[GoCometsGo]

My post, carefully considered, is gone.

Later I will make another.

I look forward to it root. I mean that sincerely.