Time To Revisit The Death Penalty
#1
Does anyone have an opinion on this botched execution or the death penalty in general? Personally, I have been on both sides of the death penalty issue, but some time back I decided that I don't want our government killing people on my behalf, not even very bad people.

I'll say more if there is any interest in discussing this. I had burned out talking about it long ago, but this case showed how things can go horribly wrong when trying to cause death by lethal injection.



Botched Oklahoma Execution Could Renew Constitutional Challenges To Death Penalty
AP | by ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS
Posted: 05/01/2014 6:43 am EDT


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — The botched execution of an Oklahoma inmate is certain to fire up the debate over what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment — the phrase written into the U.S. Constitution and defined by the courts, piece by piece, over two centuries.

Convicted killer Clayton Lockett, 38, began writhing, clenching his teeth and straining to lift his head off the pillow Tuesday evening after he had supposedly been rendered unconscious by the first of three drugs in the state's new lethal injection combination.

The execution was halted, and Lockett died of an apparent heart attack 10 minutes later, authorities said.

While officials later blamed a collapsed vein — not the drugs themselves — the case is raising questions about the ability of states to administer lethal injections that meet the Eighth Amendment requirement that punishments be neither cruel nor unusual.

Death penalty opponents such as the American Civil Liberties Union called for a moratorium on capital punishment. And the White House said the procedure fell short of humane standards.

In light of other apparently bungled executions around the U.S. in recent years, Jen Moreno, staff attorney at the Berkeley School of Law Death Penalty Clinic, said the risks are clear.

"To say that they're isolated incidents is mischaracterizing them, and what they really are is foreseeable consequences of using an inherently dangerous procedure," she said.

The rest of the article and video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01...45526.html
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#2
firing squad or guillotine may be the fall back position.
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#3
(05-03-2014, 07:32 AM)cletus1 Wrote: Does anyone have an opinion on this botched execution or the death penalty in general? Personally, I have been on both sides of the death penalty issue, but some time back I decided that I don't want our government killing people on my behalf, not even very bad people.

I'll say more if there is any interest in discussing this. I had burned out talking about it long ago, but this case showed how things can go horribly wrong when trying to cause death by lethal injection.



Botched Oklahoma Execution Could Renew Constitutional Challenges To Death Penalty
AP | by ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS
Posted: 05/01/2014 6:43 am EDT


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — The botched execution of an Oklahoma inmate is certain to fire up the debate over what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment — the phrase written into the U.S. Constitution and defined by the courts, piece by piece, over two centuries.

Convicted killer Clayton Lockett, 38, began writhing, clenching his teeth and straining to lift his head off the pillow Tuesday evening after he had supposedly been rendered unconscious by the first of three drugs in the state's new lethal injection combination.

The execution was halted, and Lockett died of an apparent heart attack 10 minutes later, authorities said.

While officials later blamed a collapsed vein — not the drugs themselves — the case is raising questions about the ability of states to administer lethal injections that meet the Eighth Amendment requirement that punishments be neither cruel nor unusual.

Death penalty opponents such as the American Civil Liberties Union called for a moratorium on capital punishment. And the White House said the procedure fell short of humane standards.

In light of other apparently bungled executions around the U.S. in recent years, Jen Moreno, staff attorney at the Berkeley School of Law Death Penalty Clinic, said the risks are clear.

"To say that they're isolated incidents is mischaracterizing them, and what they really are is foreseeable consequences of using an inherently dangerous procedure," she said.

The rest of the article and video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01...45526.html

Yeah, I have an opinion.
Like you, I can be on both sides of this thing.
Lockett (The perp) shot a young woman and stood by while some of his buddy's buried her alive and let her suffocate in the dirt.
I don't for a minute suffer any angst about his botched death.
That said...
As a society if we are going to kill people as punishment for heinous crimes, we must be "better" than the bad guys. I wonder: Maybe living for years alone in tiny cell and eating lousy food is punishment enough for people like this. Then, each morning when breakfast is served we could include a little blue pill that the inmate could take to end life if he (she) so desired.

So I grieve for the young woman shot, and gasping for her last breath in the dirt as evil men stood by. For the guy who was subjected to a "botched" execution? Not so much.
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#4
Oops
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#5
Sharia Law dictates, that he should have been shot and buried alive as well.
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#6
(05-03-2014, 07:53 AM)Wonky2 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 07:32 AM)cletus1 Wrote: Does anyone have an opinion on this botched execution or the death penalty in general? Personally, I have been on both sides of the death penalty issue, but some time back I decided that I don't want our government killing people on my behalf, not even very bad people.

I'll say more if there is any interest in discussing this. I had burned out talking about it long ago, but this case showed how things can go horribly wrong when trying to cause death by lethal injection.



Botched Oklahoma Execution Could Renew Constitutional Challenges To Death Penalty
AP | by ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS
Posted: 05/01/2014 6:43 am EDT


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — The botched execution of an Oklahoma inmate is certain to fire up the debate over what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment — the phrase written into the U.S. Constitution and defined by the courts, piece by piece, over two centuries.

Convicted killer Clayton Lockett, 38, began writhing, clenching his teeth and straining to lift his head off the pillow Tuesday evening after he had supposedly been rendered unconscious by the first of three drugs in the state's new lethal injection combination.

The execution was halted, and Lockett died of an apparent heart attack 10 minutes later, authorities said.

While officials later blamed a collapsed vein — not the drugs themselves — the case is raising questions about the ability of states to administer lethal injections that meet the Eighth Amendment requirement that punishments be neither cruel nor unusual.

Death penalty opponents such as the American Civil Liberties Union called for a moratorium on capital punishment. And the White House said the procedure fell short of humane standards.

In light of other apparently bungled executions around the U.S. in recent years, Jen Moreno, staff attorney at the Berkeley School of Law Death Penalty Clinic, said the risks are clear.

"To say that they're isolated incidents is mischaracterizing them, and what they really are is foreseeable consequences of using an inherently dangerous procedure," she said.

The rest of the article and video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01...45526.html

Yeah, I have an opinion.
Like you, I can be on both sides of this thing.
Lockett (The perp) shot a young woman and stood by while some of his buddy's buried her alive and let her suffocate in the dirt.
I don't for a minute suffer any angst about his botched death.
That said...
As a society if we are going to kill people as punishment for heinous crimes, we must be "better" than the bad guys. I wonder: Maybe living for years alone in tiny cell and eating lousy food is punishment enough for people like this. Then, each morning when breakfast is served we could include a little blue pill that the inmate could take to end life if he (she) so desired.

So I grieve for the young woman shot, and gasping for her last breath in the dirt as evil men stood by. For the guy who was subjected to a "botched" execution? Not so much.

So, are saying torturing people to death if that commit heinous crime is of little concern to you?
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#7
(05-03-2014, 08:00 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 07:53 AM)Wonky2 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 07:32 AM)cletus1 Wrote: Does anyone have an opinion on this botched execution or the death penalty in general? Personally, I have been on both sides of the death penalty issue, but some time back I decided that I don't want our government killing people on my behalf, not even very bad people.

I'll say more if there is any interest in discussing this. I had burned out talking about it long ago, but this case showed how things can go horribly wrong when trying to cause death by lethal injection.



Botched Oklahoma Execution Could Renew Constitutional Challenges To Death Penalty
AP | by ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS
Posted: 05/01/2014 6:43 am EDT


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — The botched execution of an Oklahoma inmate is certain to fire up the debate over what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment — the phrase written into the U.S. Constitution and defined by the courts, piece by piece, over two centuries.

Convicted killer Clayton Lockett, 38, began writhing, clenching his teeth and straining to lift his head off the pillow Tuesday evening after he had supposedly been rendered unconscious by the first of three drugs in the state's new lethal injection combination.

The execution was halted, and Lockett died of an apparent heart attack 10 minutes later, authorities said.

While officials later blamed a collapsed vein — not the drugs themselves — the case is raising questions about the ability of states to administer lethal injections that meet the Eighth Amendment requirement that punishments be neither cruel nor unusual.

Death penalty opponents such as the American Civil Liberties Union called for a moratorium on capital punishment. And the White House said the procedure fell short of humane standards.

In light of other apparently bungled executions around the U.S. in recent years, Jen Moreno, staff attorney at the Berkeley School of Law Death Penalty Clinic, said the risks are clear.

"To say that they're isolated incidents is mischaracterizing them, and what they really are is foreseeable consequences of using an inherently dangerous procedure," she said.

The rest of the article and video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01...45526.html

Yeah, I have an opinion.
Like you, I can be on both sides of this thing.
Lockett (The perp) shot a young woman and stood by while some of his buddy's buried her alive and let her suffocate in the dirt.
I don't for a minute suffer any angst about his botched death.
That said...
As a society if we are going to kill people as punishment for heinous crimes, we must be "better" than the bad guys. I wonder: Maybe living for years alone in tiny cell and eating lousy food is punishment enough for people like this. Then, each morning when breakfast is served we could include a little blue pill that the inmate could take to end life if he (she) so desired.

So I grieve for the young woman shot, and gasping for her last breath in the dirt as evil men stood by. For the guy who was subjected to a "botched" execution? Not so much.

So, are saying torturing people to death if that commit heinous crime is of little concern to you?

No. A more careful reading of what I posted proves the point.
This guy died a horrible death and I take no comfort in that. But it was "botched" not policy.
Again: In "my perfect world" we (society) would not kill people but lock them up in little rooms and let them suffer the rest of their natural lives, reflecting on the sins that led them there.
Again: Of course I'm concerned about "our" torturing people...even despicable people like this rotten example of humanity.
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#8
(05-03-2014, 08:10 AM)Wonky2 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 08:00 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 07:53 AM)Wonky2 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 07:32 AM)cletus1 Wrote: Does anyone have an opinion on this botched execution or the death penalty in general? Personally, I have been on both sides of the death penalty issue, but some time back I decided that I don't want our government killing people on my behalf, not even very bad people.

I'll say more if there is any interest in discussing this. I had burned out talking about it long ago, but this case showed how things can go horribly wrong when trying to cause death by lethal injection.



Botched Oklahoma Execution Could Renew Constitutional Challenges To Death Penalty
AP | by ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS
Posted: 05/01/2014 6:43 am EDT


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — The botched execution of an Oklahoma inmate is certain to fire up the debate over what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment — the phrase written into the U.S. Constitution and defined by the courts, piece by piece, over two centuries.

Convicted killer Clayton Lockett, 38, began writhing, clenching his teeth and straining to lift his head off the pillow Tuesday evening after he had supposedly been rendered unconscious by the first of three drugs in the state's new lethal injection combination.

The execution was halted, and Lockett died of an apparent heart attack 10 minutes later, authorities said.

While officials later blamed a collapsed vein — not the drugs themselves — the case is raising questions about the ability of states to administer lethal injections that meet the Eighth Amendment requirement that punishments be neither cruel nor unusual.

Death penalty opponents such as the American Civil Liberties Union called for a moratorium on capital punishment. And the White House said the procedure fell short of humane standards.

In light of other apparently bungled executions around the U.S. in recent years, Jen Moreno, staff attorney at the Berkeley School of Law Death Penalty Clinic, said the risks are clear.

"To say that they're isolated incidents is mischaracterizing them, and what they really are is foreseeable consequences of using an inherently dangerous procedure," she said.

The rest of the article and video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01...45526.html

Yeah, I have an opinion.
Like you, I can be on both sides of this thing.
Lockett (The perp) shot a young woman and stood by while some of his buddy's buried her alive and let her suffocate in the dirt.
I don't for a minute suffer any angst about his botched death.
That said...
As a society if we are going to kill people as punishment for heinous crimes, we must be "better" than the bad guys. I wonder: Maybe living for years alone in tiny cell and eating lousy food is punishment enough for people like this. Then, each morning when breakfast is served we could include a little blue pill that the inmate could take to end life if he (she) so desired.

So I grieve for the young woman shot, and gasping for her last breath in the dirt as evil men stood by. For the guy who was subjected to a "botched" execution? Not so much.

So, are saying torturing people to death if that commit heinous crime is of little concern to you?

No. A more careful reading of what I posted proves the point.
This guy died a horrible death and I take no comfort in that. But it was "botched" not policy.
Again: In "my perfect world" we (society) would not kill people but lock them up in little rooms and let them suffer the rest of their natural lives, reflecting on the sins that led them there.
Again: Of course I'm concerned about "our" torturing people...even despicable people like this rotten example of humanity.
Yeah, me too.
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#9
They should have "botched it even more. F*** him and the horse he rode in on.
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#10
(05-03-2014, 07:53 AM)Wonky2 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 07:32 AM)cletus1 Wrote: Does anyone have an opinion on this botched execution or the death penalty in general? Personally, I have been on both sides of the death penalty issue, but some time back I decided that I don't want our government killing people on my behalf, not even very bad people.

I'll say more if there is any interest in discussing this. I had burned out talking about it long ago, but this case showed how things can go horribly wrong when trying to cause death by lethal injection.



Botched Oklahoma Execution Could Renew Constitutional Challenges To Death Penalty
AP | by ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS
Posted: 05/01/2014 6:43 am EDT


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — The botched execution of an Oklahoma inmate is certain to fire up the debate over what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment — the phrase written into the U.S. Constitution and defined by the courts, piece by piece, over two centuries.

Convicted killer Clayton Lockett, 38, began writhing, clenching his teeth and straining to lift his head off the pillow Tuesday evening after he had supposedly been rendered unconscious by the first of three drugs in the state's new lethal injection combination.

The execution was halted, and Lockett died of an apparent heart attack 10 minutes later, authorities said.

While officials later blamed a collapsed vein — not the drugs themselves — the case is raising questions about the ability of states to administer lethal injections that meet the Eighth Amendment requirement that punishments be neither cruel nor unusual.

Death penalty opponents such as the American Civil Liberties Union called for a moratorium on capital punishment. And the White House said the procedure fell short of humane standards.

In light of other apparently bungled executions around the U.S. in recent years, Jen Moreno, staff attorney at the Berkeley School of Law Death Penalty Clinic, said the risks are clear.

"To say that they're isolated incidents is mischaracterizing them, and what they really are is foreseeable consequences of using an inherently dangerous procedure," she said.

The rest of the article and video: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01...45526.html

Yeah, I have an opinion.
Like you, I can be on both sides of this thing.
Lockett (The perp) shot a young woman and stood by while some of his buddy's buried her alive and let her suffocate in the dirt.
I don't for a minute suffer any angst about his botched death.
That said...
As a society if we are going to kill people as punishment for heinous crimes, we must be "better" than the bad guys. I wonder: Maybe living for years alone in tiny cell and eating lousy food is punishment enough for people like this. Then, each morning when breakfast is served we could include a little blue pill that the inmate could take to end life if he (she) so desired.

So I grieve for the young woman shot, and gasping for her last breath in the dirt as evil men stood by. For the guy who was subjected to a "botched" execution? Not so much.

Quote:Maybe living for years alone in tiny cell and eating lousy food is punishment enough for people like this.

Maybe not Wonky. Ask Charlie Manson who says he gets all the sex and drugs he needs in prison.
Ask the late Richard Speck who systematically tortured, raped, and murdered eight student nurses. I saw him interviewed in prison he was laughing having a good time and growing a set of tits with the hormones he was able to obtain in prison.

Ask the district attorneys all over the country about the advantage they have in dealing with murders when the death is on the table and that possibility is removed.
Ask the families who were able to find their murdered loves ones body and have some closure because a DA made a deal with some murderer for life in prison instead of death.
There's also the fact that if a criminal knows he will get life in prison regardless if he murders one or twenty what's to stop him?
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#11
(05-03-2014, 11:25 AM)tvguy Wrote: They should have "botched it even more. F*** him and the horse he rode in on.

OK torture boy. Last time here you were the rule of law boy. What happened?

You realize that the only reason that there is a controversy is that the 8th amendment to the constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, but you seem to relish the idea. The death penalty carried out by lethal injection was ruled constitutional because it is a relatively painless death. So it was determined to not be cruel and unusual. So much for we're better that those animals huh TV?

Actually you are just a vindictive prick who likes to see people get what's coming to them. Only what's coming to them isn't yours to decide thank fucking god.
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#12
(05-03-2014, 03:32 PM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-03-2014, 11:25 AM)tvguy Wrote: They should have "botched it even more. F*** him and the horse he rode in on.

OK torture boy. Last time here you were the rule of law boy. What happened?

You realize that the only reason that there is a controversy is that the 8th amendment to the constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, but you seem to relish the idea. The death penalty carried out by lethal injection was ruled constitutional because it is a relatively painless death. So it was determined to not be cruel and unusual. So much for we're better that those animals huh TV?

Actually you are just a vindictive prick who likes to see people get what's coming to them. Only what's coming to them isn't yours to decide thank fucking god.

Wow Clete! Come on, say what you really mean. Sad
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#13
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
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#14
(05-03-2014, 04:04 PM)csrowan Wrote: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

Wow. Heavy man. Like you know, far out.

An "eye for and eye" would have meant this dirt bag takes a couple of gut shots and then gets buried alive in a ditch where he suffocates.

But as Clete points out, we have have an enlightened constitution and inch by inch we are making our way toward a more civil attitude about what to do with evil people who allow their passions to creep way past normal.

So we should not torture them. And many feel we should not kill them. The point here is that a botched attempt at ending this evil asshole's life went awry. Too bad, but not all that damn tragic. Let's call it poetic justice, or karma, or whatever. Let's not cry about it for too long however.
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#15
"An eye for an eye" could also be interpreted as "a life for a life" or simply as "vengeance instead of justice" for this particular case.

Retribution is not the point of our criminal justice system. Determining guilt is. Making sure that people are not rewarded for criminal behavior is. Creating disincentives for criminal behavior is. Rehabilitation should be, when possible. Preserving freedom and civil liberty is. And a whole lot more.
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#16
(05-03-2014, 04:23 PM)csrowan Wrote: "An eye for an eye" could also be interpreted as "a life for a life" or simply as "vengeance instead of justice" for this particular case.

Retribution is not the point of our criminal justice system. Determining guilt is. Making sure that people are not rewarded for criminal behavior is. Creating disincentives for criminal behavior is. Rehabilitation should be, when possible. Preserving freedom and civil liberty is. And a whole lot more.

Sometimes you talk like a man with a paper butt going to a bonfire.

LaughingWith all due respect, of course.
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#17
What a frightfully cogent argument. Rolling Eyes
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#18
[Image: BmbpYtpCUAAcuVD.jpg]
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#19
Quote:ELIZABETH BRANCATO, Connecticut
Daughter of Barbara McKitis, murdered in Connecticut in 1979.

Elizabeth Brancato’s mother, Barbara McKitis, was murdered in 1979, at the age of 53. William Steppney was convicted of Second Degree murder and sentenced to 28 years; he served less than five.

Elizabeth testified before the Connecticut House Judiciary Committee in support of an abolition bill last year, and she has also spoken at rallies and other events organized by the Connecticut Network to Abolish the Death Penalty. In the spring of 2005, she participated in the “Dissent with Dignity” walk in protest of Connecticut’s first execution in 45 years, and later that year she participated in the Texas Journey of Hope and spoke to several audiences there.

“I will admit that for some time after my mother's murder, I had angry, vengeful thoughts and wished my mother's killer dead. I thought I wanted vengeance and justice. What I really wanted was to have my mother back and to not have to think about the horror of her death. Gradually I came to believe it would dishonor my mother to kill for her sake, because if we really believe it was wrong that her life was taken, then it would also be wrong to take another life. Rather than being a way of ending violence, I see the death penalty as part of a spiral of never-ending violence."
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#20
(05-03-2014, 04:56 PM)csrowan Wrote: What a frightfully cogent argument. Rolling Eyes
Some people put their intelligence on hold and cater to the more baser and revengeful instincts that most of us have. I understand that emotion all too well and it is only with some effort that I think that we are better off as a society when we think things through without undue emotion and adopt rules civilized man can live by. IMO, when we adopt laws without revenge as our primary motivator, we are better off as a civilized nation. But then I am not the one that is constantly looking for our higher selves.
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