Help with a flag photo
#21
(08-10-2017, 02:53 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 01:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-09-2017, 10:41 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-09-2017, 04:00 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-09-2017, 02:46 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: Yeah, it does!
Folks can fly it because in America we are free to do that.
But it WAS in FACT the battle flag of a nation that attempted to overthrow the sovereign government of the United States of America. 
Maybe you DO need a history lesson.
Maybe you need to realize that the confederate flag has long flown simply to show pride for the south. It doesn't have to mean one still believes in slavery or is racist.

Who the fuck are you to claim you know what is in the mind of every person who ever flew the confederate flag?
And again your arrogance thinking you actually need to tell me what the civil war was about.... AGAIN

You are the single most arrogant person who ever posted here.

I would not fly the confederate flag. But only because of what people might think about me. But There's no way I'm capable of knowing what is in the mind of every person who does.


When we see this flag, we should be reminded that it is the symbol of a failed and flawed institution that was costly in both treasure and lives, and we should never again allow unlawful and immoral segments of our population to take hold and threaten the values our founding fathers made possible.

Speak for yourself, The civil war was 150 years ago. What the flag meant in a war then in no way STILL has to represent what it means to people today.
Why couldn't it simply be a reminder of Americans who valiantly and courageously fought, bled and died for what they believed was right?

Yep: For what they believed was right. That white people could own black people, enslaved, beaten and hung. 

As to the rest of your post, you are ranting. No need to go postal and attack me with personal slurs about being arrogant. I expressed an opinion, one that I think history will support, and you cross some kind of line with the tone and vocabulary of your insults. Don't do it anymore.

Yep: For what they believed was right. That white people could own black people, enslaved, beaten and hung.

That is unbelievably ignorant coming from you. Not all slave owners beat or hung slaves. Maybe you forgot that many of out founding fathers you so often look up to were slave owners.
Yes the North and the South owned slaves for hundreds of years but all of a sudden when there is war and the north wins it's just the south who were the murderous treacherous villains?

And you sit here and tell me the flag HAS to represent what YOU think? I didn't think you would ever side with the silly ass notion that we should look back in history and judge people based on TODAY'S morals.

TV, the flag IS. Just that simple. It is the battle flag of the Confederate States of America (And later the flag that represented the county of the CSA.) 
Kind of like the Swastika of the Nazi regime: You can fly it on your car and call it whatever you want (as is your right) but it will remain, now and forever, the symbol of the Nazi party and the evil they forced on the world. 
Our American flag too is only a symbol but we honor it for the history it represents and the freedom it affords us today.

Yes, many of our founding fathers were slave owners. And yes, our constitution allowed for the institution of slavery. But in the 80 or so years from the Continental Congress to Mr. Lincoln becoming president, we learned to be a more tolerant and ethical people and the northern states outlawed the owning of other people. Not so the south. And many did beat and hang slaves: Not all, but ALL salves were owned and had no human rights. 

And that flag was the one flying when those inhuman acts were being practiced. The flag has not changed. It's true we no longer allow people to own other people but it took the bloodiest war in our history to end that practice. 

So, look at The Stars and Bars and see what you want. But never forget what it represented, and to pretend that it now means something else is delusional. That flag has not changed!

Thank the gods the North won that terrible war. Our country in again whole, and we have The Stars and Stripes to represent the victory, and to remind us of the freedom ALL citizens of our country enjoy. 

And still: Anyone can display that "Stars and Bars" freely. No matter what it represents. I feel blessed and honored to live in a country that allows folks to fly it, or if they want, the Nazi flag. Freedom is wonderful thing, something enslaved people know even better than we. 

Arrogant? No TV, just down home facts.

So, look at The Stars and Bars and see what you want. But never forget what it represented, and to pretend that it now means something else is delusional. That flag has not changed!

Once again an unnecessary history lesson as if somehow I don't know what the flag originally meant.

I think you are more likely the one deluded because you somehow magically know what is in the minds of anyone who flies a confederate flag.

I sorry but I see why people can be prideful of confederates who valiantly fought and died for what they thought was right. Or maybe they just thought it was their duty.
I can say the same for out Vietnam vets.
I can say the same for our armies that fought Indians. Or our European settlers who came here and claimed land.
Or for the Spanish who who conquered Aztec empire and stole their gold.
Or for countless other countries who took slaves conquered other countries. Judging any of them by today's morals is crazy.
 .

And so are you are anyone assuming you know what is in the mind of anyone who flies a rebel flag

If I want to fly a Viking flag it doesn't mean I'm all for slaughtering, rape and stealing.
Maybe I simply just admire their courage, cunning and will power.
Reply
#22
(08-10-2017, 02:53 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 01:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-09-2017, 10:41 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-09-2017, 04:00 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-09-2017, 02:46 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: Yeah, it does!
Folks can fly it because in America we are free to do that.
But it WAS in FACT the battle flag of a nation that attempted to overthrow the sovereign government of the United States of America. 
Maybe you DO need a history lesson.
Maybe you need to realize that the confederate flag has long flown simply to show pride for the south. It doesn't have to mean one still believes in slavery or is racist.

Who the fuck are you to claim you know what is in the mind of every person who ever flew the confederate flag?
And again your arrogance thinking you actually need to tell me what the civil war was about.... AGAIN

You are the single most arrogant person who ever posted here.

I would not fly the confederate flag. But only because of what people might think about me. But There's no way I'm capable of knowing what is in the mind of every person who does.


When we see this flag, we should be reminded that it is the symbol of a failed and flawed institution that was costly in both treasure and lives, and we should never again allow unlawful and immoral segments of our population to take hold and threaten the values our founding fathers made possible.

Speak for yourself, The civil war was 150 years ago. What the flag meant in a war then in no way STILL has to represent what it means to people today.
Why couldn't it simply be a reminder of Americans who valiantly and courageously fought, bled and died for what they believed was right?

Yep: For what they believed was right. That white people could own black people, enslaved, beaten and hung. 

As to the rest of your post, you are ranting. No need to go postal and attack me with personal slurs about being arrogant. I expressed an opinion, one that I think history will support, and you cross some kind of line with the tone and vocabulary of your insults. Don't do it anymore.

Yep: For what they believed was right. That white people could own black people, enslaved, beaten and hung.

That is unbelievably ignorant coming from you. Not all slave owners beat or hung slaves. Maybe you forgot that many of out founding fathers you so often look up to were slave owners.
Yes the North and the South owned slaves for hundreds of years but all of a sudden when there is war and the north wins it's just the south who were the murderous treacherous villains?

And you sit here and tell me the flag HAS to represent what YOU think? I didn't think you would ever side with the silly ass notion that we should look back in history and judge people based on TODAY'S morals.

TV, the flag IS. Just that simple. It is the battle flag of the Confederate States of America (And later the flag that represented the county of the CSA.) 
Kind of like the Swastika of the Nazi regime: You can fly it on your car and call it whatever you want (as is your right) but it will remain, now and forever, the symbol of the Nazi party and the evil they forced on the world. 
Our American flag too is only a symbol but we honor it for the history it represents and the freedom it affords us today.

Yes, many of our founding fathers were slave owners. And yes, our constitution allowed for the institution of slavery. But in the 80 or so years from the Continental Congress to Mr. Lincoln becoming president, we learned to be a more tolerant and ethical people and the northern states outlawed the owning of other people. Not so the south. And many did beat and hang slaves: Not all, but ALL salves were owned and had no human rights. 

And that flag was the one flying when those inhuman acts were being practiced. The flag has not changed. It's true we no longer allow people to own other people but it took the bloodiest war in our history to end that practice. 

So, look at The Stars and Bars and see what you want. But never forget what it represented, and to pretend that it now means something else is delusional. That flag has not changed!

Thank the gods the North won that terrible war. Our country in again whole, and we have The Stars and Stripes to represent the victory, and to remind us of the freedom ALL citizens of our country enjoy. 

And still: Anyone can display that "Stars and Bars" freely. No matter what it represents. I feel blessed and honored to live in a country that allows folks to fly it, or if they want, the Nazi flag. Freedom is wonderful thing, something enslaved people know even better than we. 

Arrogant? No TV, just down home facts.

The Civil War was fought and it had everything to do with slavery but wasn't fought to free the slaves.   Lincoln didn't emancipate the Union Slaves. It was purely a political move.  We all know that thousands of citizens who fought for the South didn't own slaves. Not every Southerner believed in or supported slavery.  When those people looked to their flags did they see it as a flag that represented slavery?  And nobody flies the Stars and Bars. They fly the Battle Flag of the Northern Virginian army and call it the "Confederate Flag" which just goes to show how slanted and misrepresented the entire thing has come to be.
Reply
#23
Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think: This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?
Reply
#24
(08-10-2017, 06:28 PM)Juniper Wrote: Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?
Good point Tia. There is no doubt this country has engaged in deplorable and despicable acts. What we did to our Japanese citizens was also a crime and we now know the shame of that. 

But no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions. 

About the civil war: It's true the war was not fought solely to free the slaves. Lincoln famously said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it and if I could save it by freeing all the salves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also so that".

So it was not directly and only about slavery as you said. However, since we both have read some history we know that the "cotton economy" of the South would not have survived without slave (free) labor. So as we know, the war became necessary because abolitionist pressures were a threat to the very texture of the Southern economy. The industrial North could prosper with cheap immigrant labor but the South had not developed industrial platforms and remained an agrarian economy. 

As we know, when the Missouri Compromise was effectively repealed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and declared unconstitutional in Dred Scott, the tensions over slavery became intense and led to the Civil War. A very clear break in the attitudes and values of the economy of the "slave South" and the industrial north now embracing the abolition of slavery. 

So while it was the economy that was the root cause of the Civil War it was slavery that fueled the economy of the South and they could not tolerate any change that threatened that. 

I don't see any reason to honor the Stars and Bars, because it is the symbol of a rogue nation that nearly bled us to death attempting to preserve a system of slavery that was immoral then, immoral now, and can never be condoned by a civilized people. 

But those who want to fly it can. Again, the beauty of living in a free and tolerant society. 

Arrogant? Not by a long shot. History leaves scabs but teaches us lessons we need to remember.
Reply
#25
(08-10-2017, 07:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 06:28 PM)Juniper Wrote: Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?
Good point Tia. There is no doubt this country has engaged in deplorable and despicable acts. What we did to our Japanese citizens was also a crime and we now know the shame of that. 

But no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions. 

About the civil war: It's true the war was not fought solely to free the slaves. Lincoln famously said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it and if I could save it by freeing all the salves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also so that".

So it was not directly and only about slavery as you said. However, since we both have read some history we know that the "cotton economy" of the South would not have survived without slave (free) labor. So as we know, the war became necessary because abolitionist pressures were a threat to the very texture of the Southern economy. The industrial North could prosper with cheap immigrant labor but the South had not developed industrial platforms and remained an agrarian economy. 

As we know, when the Missouri Compromise was effectively repealed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and declared unconstitutional in Dred Scott, the tensions over slavery became intense and led to the Civil War. A very clear break in the attitudes and values of the economy of the "slave South" and the industrial north now embracing the abolition of slavery. 

So while it was the economy that was the root cause of the Civil War it was slavery that fueled the economy of the South and they could not tolerate any change that threatened that. 

I don't see any reason to honor the Stars and Bars, because it is the symbol of a rogue nation that nearly bled us to death attempting to preserve a system of slavery that was immoral then, immoral now, and can never be condoned by a civilized people. 

But those who want to fly it can. Again, the beauty of living in a free and tolerant society. 

Arrogant? Not by a long shot. History leaves scabs but teaches us lessons we need to remember.

Well, I think that's your opinion, as much as someone saying the American Flag stands for genocide.  Does  the passage time make the difference?  England officially opposed slavery and yet it made it's fair share of profit from it. Liverpool made it's fortune in those days from the slaving triangle. England looked into the possibility of supporting the Confederacy.  No one knew where to stand.      I think saying the flag symbolizes a  Rogue Nation that wanted to preserve a system of slavery is fair. Is that the same as saying a person from that nation support that system of slavery?  I don't think it is.  I am 100% certain that people who oppose slavery in totality have some form of pride in the flag as symbol of independence and solidarity instead.  It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals.
Reply
#26
(08-10-2017, 08:31 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 07:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 06:28 PM)Juniper Wrote: Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?
Good point Tia. There is no doubt this country has engaged in deplorable and despicable acts. What we did to our Japanese citizens was also a crime and we now know the shame of that. 

But no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions. 

About the civil war: It's true the war was not fought solely to free the slaves. Lincoln famously said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it and if I could save it by freeing all the salves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also so that".

So it was not directly and only about slavery as you said. However, since we both have read some history we know that the "cotton economy" of the South would not have survived without slave (free) labor. So as we know, the war became necessary because abolitionist pressures were a threat to the very texture of the Southern economy. The industrial North could prosper with cheap immigrant labor but the South had not developed industrial platforms and remained an agrarian economy. 

As we know, when the Missouri Compromise was effectively repealed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and declared unconstitutional in Dred Scott, the tensions over slavery became intense and led to the Civil War. A very clear break in the attitudes and values of the economy of the "slave South" and the industrial north now embracing the abolition of slavery. 

So while it was the economy that was the root cause of the Civil War it was slavery that fueled the economy of the South and they could not tolerate any change that threatened that. 

I don't see any reason to honor the Stars and Bars, because it is the symbol of a rogue nation that nearly bled us to death attempting to preserve a system of slavery that was immoral then, immoral now, and can never be condoned by a civilized people. 

But those who want to fly it can. Again, the beauty of living in a free and tolerant society. 

Arrogant? Not by a long shot. History leaves scabs but teaches us lessons we need to remember.

Well, I think that's your opinion, as much as someone saying the American Flag stands for genocide.  Does  the passage time make the difference?  England officially opposed slavery and yet it made it's fair share of profit from it. Liverpool made it's fortune in those days from the slaving triangle. England looked into the possibility of supporting the Confederacy.  No one knew where to stand.      I think saying the flag symbolizes a  Rogue Nation that wanted to preserve a system of slavery is fair. Is that the same as saying a person from that nation support that system of slavery?  I don't think it is.  I am 100% certain that people who oppose slavery in totality have some form of pride in the flag as symbol of independence and solidarity instead.  It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals.

We can agree to disagree. 
I will continue to think the Confederate States of American was a rogue nation for all the reasons I stated above. 
time does change things.
But the symbol of that time should have been retired long ago. 
And I can't agree that " It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals" as you say. It was wrong then, and wrong to in any way honor the history of that mistake. 
Forgive and forget, I'll embrace.
To cling to the symbols of disgrace and intolerance, are IHMO, simply wrong. 
As I said...IMHO!
Reply
#27
(08-10-2017, 08:42 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:31 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 07:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 06:28 PM)Juniper Wrote: Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?
Good point Tia. There is no doubt this country has engaged in deplorable and despicable acts. What we did to our Japanese citizens was also a crime and we now know the shame of that. 

But no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions. 

About the civil war: It's true the war was not fought solely to free the slaves. Lincoln famously said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it and if I could save it by freeing all the salves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also so that".

So it was not directly and only about slavery as you said. However, since we both have read some history we know that the "cotton economy" of the South would not have survived without slave (free) labor. So as we know, the war became necessary because abolitionist pressures were a threat to the very texture of the Southern economy. The industrial North could prosper with cheap immigrant labor but the South had not developed industrial platforms and remained an agrarian economy. 

As we know, when the Missouri Compromise was effectively repealed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and declared unconstitutional in Dred Scott, the tensions over slavery became intense and led to the Civil War. A very clear break in the attitudes and values of the economy of the "slave South" and the industrial north now embracing the abolition of slavery. 

So while it was the economy that was the root cause of the Civil War it was slavery that fueled the economy of the South and they could not tolerate any change that threatened that. 

I don't see any reason to honor the Stars and Bars, because it is the symbol of a rogue nation that nearly bled us to death attempting to preserve a system of slavery that was immoral then, immoral now, and can never be condoned by a civilized people. 







But those who want to fly it can. Again, the beauty of living in a free and tolerant society. 

Arrogant? Not by a long shot. History leaves scabs but teaches us lessons we need to remember.

Well, I think that's your opinion, as much as someone saying the American Flag stands for genocide.  Does  the passage time make the difference?  England officially opposed slavery and yet it made it's fair share of profit from it. Liverpool made it's fortune in those days from the slaving triangle. England looked into the possibility of supporting the Confederacy.  No one knew where to stand.      I think saying the flag symbolizes a  Rogue Nation that wanted to preserve a system of slavery is fair. Is that the same as saying a person from that nation support that system of slavery?  I don't think it is.  I am 100% certain that people who oppose slavery in totality have some form of pride in the flag as symbol of independence and solidarity instead.  It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals.

We can agree to disagree. 
I will continue to think the Confederate States of American was a rogue nation for all the reasons I stated above. 
time does change things.
But the symbol of that time should have been retired long ago. 
And I can't agree that " It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals" as you say. It was wrong then, and wrong to in any way honor the history of that mistake. 
Forgive and forget, I'll embrace.
To cling to the symbols of disgrace and intolerance, are IHMO, simply wrong. 
As I said...IMHO!

In other words Wonky didn't listen to a single word you said.


Juniper....Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?

Wonky.....no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions.

OK Wonky So YOU look at the American flag and YOU CHOOSE what YOU think it represents.

But no one else can do the same when they see the confederate flag?
No one else can do the exact same thing you do. Because as you keep saying the confederate flag can ONLY represent one thing. Rolling Eyes

 

Reply
#28
(08-11-2017, 06:03 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:42 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:31 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 07:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 06:28 PM)Juniper Wrote: Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?
Good point Tia. There is no doubt this country has engaged in deplorable and despicable acts. What we did to our Japanese citizens was also a crime and we now know the shame of that. 

But no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions. 

About the civil war: It's true the war was not fought solely to free the slaves. Lincoln famously said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it and if I could save it by freeing all the salves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also so that".

So it was not directly and only about slavery as you said. However, since we both have read some history we know that the "cotton economy" of the South would not have survived without slave (free) labor. So as we know, the war became necessary because abolitionist pressures were a threat to the very texture of the Southern economy. The industrial North could prosper with cheap immigrant labor but the South had not developed industrial platforms and remained an agrarian economy. 

As we know, when the Missouri Compromise was effectively repealed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and declared unconstitutional in Dred Scott, the tensions over slavery became intense and led to the Civil War. A very clear break in the attitudes and values of the economy of the "slave South" and the industrial north now embracing the abolition of slavery. 

So while it was the economy that was the root cause of the Civil War it was slavery that fueled the economy of the South and they could not tolerate any change that threatened that. 

I don't see any reason to honor the Stars and Bars, because it is the symbol of a rogue nation that nearly bled us to death attempting to preserve a system of slavery that was immoral then, immoral now, and can never be condoned by a civilized people. 







But those who want to fly it can. Again, the beauty of living in a free and tolerant society. 

Arrogant? Not by a long shot. History leaves scabs but teaches us lessons we need to remember.

Well, I think that's your opinion, as much as someone saying the American Flag stands for genocide.  Does  the passage time make the difference?  England officially opposed slavery and yet it made it's fair share of profit from it. Liverpool made it's fortune in those days from the slaving triangle. England looked into the possibility of supporting the Confederacy.  No one knew where to stand.      I think saying the flag symbolizes a  Rogue Nation that wanted to preserve a system of slavery is fair. Is that the same as saying a person from that nation support that system of slavery?  I don't think it is.  I am 100% certain that people who oppose slavery in totality have some form of pride in the flag as symbol of independence and solidarity instead.  It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals.

We can agree to disagree. 
I will continue to think the Confederate States of American was a rogue nation for all the reasons I stated above. 
time does change things.
But the symbol of that time should have been retired long ago. 
And I can't agree that " It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals" as you say. It was wrong then, and wrong to in any way honor the history of that mistake. 
Forgive and forget, I'll embrace.
To cling to the symbols of disgrace and intolerance, are IHMO, simply wrong. 
As I said...IMHO!

In other words Wonky didn't listen to a single word you said.


Juniper....Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?

Wonky.....no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions.

OK Wonky So YOU look at the American flag and YOU CHOOSE what YOU think it represents.

But no one else can do the same when they see the confederate flag?
No one else can do the exact same thing you do. Because as you keep saying the confederate flag can ONLY represent one thing. Rolling Eyes

 


Everybody does that. Everyone has their own reaction to any symbol. There isn't any disagreement that anyone has the right to flout any flag they want. Likewise I have the right to think they are asses for doing so.

Personally I think flags are silly things to get all serious about. Any flag. It's just a hunk of cloth.
Reply
#29
(08-11-2017, 06:03 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:42 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:31 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 07:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 06:28 PM)Juniper Wrote: Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?
Good point Tia. There is no doubt this country has engaged in deplorable and despicable acts. What we did to our Japanese citizens was also a crime and we now know the shame of that. 

But no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions. 

About the civil war: It's true the war was not fought solely to free the slaves. Lincoln famously said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it and if I could save it by freeing all the salves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also so that".

So it was not directly and only about slavery as you said. However, since we both have read some history we know that the "cotton economy" of the South would not have survived without slave (free) labor. So as we know, the war became necessary because abolitionist pressures were a threat to the very texture of the Southern economy. The industrial North could prosper with cheap immigrant labor but the South had not developed industrial platforms and remained an agrarian economy. 

As we know, when the Missouri Compromise was effectively repealed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and declared unconstitutional in Dred Scott, the tensions over slavery became intense and led to the Civil War. A very clear break in the attitudes and values of the economy of the "slave South" and the industrial north now embracing the abolition of slavery. 

So while it was the economy that was the root cause of the Civil War it was slavery that fueled the economy of the South and they could not tolerate any change that threatened that. 

I don't see any reason to honor the Stars and Bars, because it is the symbol of a rogue nation that nearly bled us to death attempting to preserve a system of slavery that was immoral then, immoral now, and can never be condoned by a civilized people. 







But those who want to fly it can. Again, the beauty of living in a free and tolerant society. 

Arrogant? Not by a long shot. History leaves scabs but teaches us lessons we need to remember.

Well, I think that's your opinion, as much as someone saying the American Flag stands for genocide.  Does  the passage time make the difference?  England officially opposed slavery and yet it made it's fair share of profit from it. Liverpool made it's fortune in those days from the slaving triangle. England looked into the possibility of supporting the Confederacy.  No one knew where to stand.      I think saying the flag symbolizes a  Rogue Nation that wanted to preserve a system of slavery is fair. Is that the same as saying a person from that nation support that system of slavery?  I don't think it is.  I am 100% certain that people who oppose slavery in totality have some form of pride in the flag as symbol of independence and solidarity instead.  It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals.

We can agree to disagree. 
I will continue to think the Confederate States of American was a rogue nation for all the reasons I stated above. 
time does change things.
But the symbol of that time should have been retired long ago. 
And I can't agree that " It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals" as you say. It was wrong then, and wrong to in any way honor the history of that mistake. 
Forgive and forget, I'll embrace.
To cling to the symbols of disgrace and intolerance, are IHMO, simply wrong. 
As I said...IMHO!

In other words Wonky didn't listen to a single word you said.


Juniper....Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?

Wonky.....no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions.

OK Wonky So YOU look at the American flag and YOU CHOOSE what YOU think it represents.

But no one else can do the same when they see the confederate flag?
No one else can do the exact same thing you do. Because as you keep saying the confederate flag can ONLY represent one thing. Rolling Eyes

 

Exactly.  The problem with what I'm hearing Wonky say, is:  I believe this is so, so it's so.  Wonky, you did say it's  your opinion, but you are therefore saying your opinion is not just what you believe it means, but what it means to others.
Reply
#30
(08-11-2017, 06:27 PM)Cuzz Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 06:03 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:42 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:31 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 07:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: Good point Tia. There is no doubt this country has engaged in deplorable and despicable acts. What we did to our Japanese citizens was also a crime and we now know the shame of that. 

But no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions. 

About the civil war: It's true the war was not fought solely to free the slaves. Lincoln famously said "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it and if I could save it by freeing all the salves I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also so that".

So it was not directly and only about slavery as you said. However, since we both have read some history we know that the "cotton economy" of the South would not have survived without slave (free) labor. So as we know, the war became necessary because abolitionist pressures were a threat to the very texture of the Southern economy. The industrial North could prosper with cheap immigrant labor but the South had not developed industrial platforms and remained an agrarian economy. 

As we know, when the Missouri Compromise was effectively repealed in the Kansas-Nebraska Act and declared unconstitutional in Dred Scott, the tensions over slavery became intense and led to the Civil War. A very clear break in the attitudes and values of the economy of the "slave South" and the industrial north now embracing the abolition of slavery. 

So while it was the economy that was the root cause of the Civil War it was slavery that fueled the economy of the South and they could not tolerate any change that threatened that. 

I don't see any reason to honor the Stars and Bars, because it is the symbol of a rogue nation that nearly bled us to death attempting to preserve a system of slavery that was immoral then, immoral now, and can never be condoned by a civilized people. 







But those who want to fly it can. Again, the beauty of living in a free and tolerant society. 

Arrogant? Not by a long shot. History leaves scabs but teaches us lessons we need to remember.

Well, I think that's your opinion, as much as someone saying the American Flag stands for genocide.  Does  the passage time make the difference?  England officially opposed slavery and yet it made it's fair share of profit from it. Liverpool made it's fortune in those days from the slaving triangle. England looked into the possibility of supporting the Confederacy.  No one knew where to stand.      I think saying the flag symbolizes a  Rogue Nation that wanted to preserve a system of slavery is fair. Is that the same as saying a person from that nation support that system of slavery?  I don't think it is.  I am 100% certain that people who oppose slavery in totality have some form of pride in the flag as symbol of independence and solidarity instead.  It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals.

We can agree to disagree. 
I will continue to think the Confederate States of American was a rogue nation for all the reasons I stated above. 
time does change things.
But the symbol of that time should have been retired long ago. 
And I can't agree that " It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals" as you say. It was wrong then, and wrong to in any way honor the history of that mistake. 
Forgive and forget, I'll embrace.
To cling to the symbols of disgrace and intolerance, are IHMO, simply wrong. 
As I said...IMHO!

In other words Wonky didn't listen to a single word you said.


Juniper....Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?

Wonky.....no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions.

OK Wonky So YOU look at the American flag and YOU CHOOSE what YOU think it represents.

But no one else can do the same when they see the confederate flag?
No one else can do the exact same thing you do. Because as you keep saying the confederate flag can ONLY represent one thing. Rolling Eyes

 


Everybody does that. Everyone has their own reaction to any symbol. There isn't any disagreement that anyone has the right to flout any flag they want. Likewise I have the right to think they are asses for doing so.

Personally I think flags are silly things to get all serious about. Any flag. It's just a hunk of cloth.
Yeah For me I've never cared if some jerk wants to burn a flag. I don't see that its a dishonor for those who fought and died for our country.
I see it's a hunk of cloth that merely represents our country. People in our country have a right to burn a flag it's in the freaking constitution. It's called freedom of speech and isn't "freedom" what we fight for?
Reply
#31
(08-11-2017, 07:21 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 06:27 PM)Cuzz Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 06:03 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:42 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:31 PM)Juniper Wrote: Well, I think that's your opinion, as much as someone saying the American Flag stands for genocide.  Does  the passage time make the difference?  England officially opposed slavery and yet it made it's fair share of profit from it. Liverpool made it's fortune in those days from the slaving triangle. England looked into the possibility of supporting the Confederacy.  No one knew where to stand.      I think saying the flag symbolizes a  Rogue Nation that wanted to preserve a system of slavery is fair. Is that the same as saying a person from that nation support that system of slavery?  I don't think it is.  I am 100% certain that people who oppose slavery in totality have some form of pride in the flag as symbol of independence and solidarity instead.  It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals.

We can agree to disagree. 
I will continue to think the Confederate States of American was a rogue nation for all the reasons I stated above. 
time does change things.
But the symbol of that time should have been retired long ago. 
And I can't agree that " It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals" as you say. It was wrong then, and wrong to in any way honor the history of that mistake. 
Forgive and forget, I'll embrace.
To cling to the symbols of disgrace and intolerance, are IHMO, simply wrong. 
As I said...IMHO!

In other words Wonky didn't listen to a single word you said.


Juniper....Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?

Wonky.....no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions.

OK Wonky So YOU look at the American flag and YOU CHOOSE what YOU think it represents.

But no one else can do the same when they see the confederate flag?
No one else can do the exact same thing you do. Because as you keep saying the confederate flag can ONLY represent one thing. Rolling Eyes

 


Everybody does that. Everyone has their own reaction to any symbol. There isn't any disagreement that anyone has the right to flout any flag they want. Likewise I have the right to think they are asses for doing so.

Personally I think flags are silly things to get all serious about. Any flag. It's just a hunk of cloth.
Yeah For me I've never cared if some jerk wants to burn a flag. I don't see that its a dishonor for those who fought and died for our country.
I see it's a hunk of cloth that merely represents our country. People in our country have a right to burn a flag it's in the freaking constitution. It's called freedom of speech and isn't "freedom" what we fight for?

Well I like what this particular thread has morphed into.  Big Grin If I had a flag (I need to get one) I would be hanging it upside down as a sign of our country being in distress since the current president has taken office. (Actually since he was elected) 

This is a good opinion piece that pretty much sums up my thoughts on this so read it if you choose.

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/why-...side-down/

[Image: us-flag-upside-down-370x229.jpg]
Reply
#32
(08-11-2017, 09:35 PM)Valuesize Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 07:21 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 06:27 PM)Cuzz Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 06:03 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-10-2017, 08:42 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: We can agree to disagree. 
I will continue to think the Confederate States of American was a rogue nation for all the reasons I stated above. 
time does change things.
But the symbol of that time should have been retired long ago. 
And I can't agree that " It's incorrect to interpret what people are taking from it from the stance of modern morals" as you say. It was wrong then, and wrong to in any way honor the history of that mistake. 
Forgive and forget, I'll embrace.
To cling to the symbols of disgrace and intolerance, are IHMO, simply wrong. 
As I said...IMHO!

In other words Wonky didn't listen to a single word you said.


Juniper....Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?

Wonky.....no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions.

OK Wonky So YOU look at the American flag and YOU CHOOSE what YOU think it represents.

But no one else can do the same when they see the confederate flag?
No one else can do the exact same thing you do. Because as you keep saying the confederate flag can ONLY represent one thing. Rolling Eyes

 


Everybody does that. Everyone has their own reaction to any symbol. There isn't any disagreement that anyone has the right to flout any flag they want. Likewise I have the right to think they are asses for doing so.

Personally I think flags are silly things to get all serious about. Any flag. It's just a hunk of cloth.
Yeah For me I've never cared if some jerk wants to burn a flag. I don't see that its a dishonor for those who fought and died for our country.
I see it's a hunk of cloth that merely represents our country. People in our country have a right to burn a flag it's in the freaking constitution. It's called freedom of speech and isn't "freedom" what we fight for?

Well I like what this particular thread has morphed into.  Big Grin If I had a flag (I need to get one) I would be hanging it upside down as a sign of our country being in distress since the current president has taken office. (Actually since he was elected) 

This is a good opinion piece that pretty much sums up my thoughts on this so read it if you choose.

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/why-...side-down/

[Image: us-flag-upside-down-370x229.jpg]

Sorry Vs, the link does nor work and I'm too lazy to hunt it down. Later maybe. 

Well, we have about kicked this issue to death. I'll kick it one last time. 

Above, a some folks have said I expressed my OPINION and suggested it's "only" my opinion. To some extent that is true. But, when we offer opinions we can wing out and say, for instance, that "in my opinion Guam is going to tip over." An opinion, but a goofy one devoid of fact. 
On the other hand if I say it's my opinion that the overuse of antibiotics is making is making us resistant to the use of drugs that might otherwise help stave off infections, my opinion is largely fact based. 
When I said the the "Stars and Bars" was the battle flag of the CSA I was stating a fact. It is also a fact the the CSA rebelled against the government of the United States of America and made war against us that was the most bloody war in our history. And they did it flying the Stars and Bars. 
That's simply a fact. 
The CSA was defeated, we went through Reconstruction and Jim Crow, and our country was made whole again. 
What remains is the flag used to represent and support that rebellion. It's the same flag. (After they were defeated, the German people rejected the Nazi flag, the Japanese rejected the Rising Sun flag and returned to the historical flag)

Then, Juniper in a post above attempted to equate the death of John Lennon and how we remember that, to the way we now think of the Rebel Flag. I tried my best to see her point and stretched to agree, at least in part. I was a chore because I had some difficulty in parsing her remarks. Still, maybe some kind of connection, however remote. Her point: Things change. True. But history doesn't. 

So, for my part I'm putting this to bed. I'll continue to think the Rebel Flag is without any honor, and if not as evil as the Swastika, it remains a symbol of death and destruction fostered by a society of slave owning elitists who chose war in an attempt to save a failing economic system and preserve a government that continued to allow the owing of other human beings and use them as free labor.

It's only my opinion, but you can't deny history and the tragic events that were so costly in blood and treasure. 

If you want to see the Rebel Flag as something other than the battle flag of that rogue nation, you may, of course do that, but your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. 

Do I really care all that much? No. I have never attempted to remove the Stars and Bars when I see it, nor have I ever approached anyone displaying it and made comments about it. 

But, my opinion will remain, and I'll insist it is based on the reality of history and what that symbol means. Further, I'll continue to believe that symbols are important. Our American flag too, is a symbol, it's history flawed, but redeemed by  sacrifice and the evolution of changing attitudes that give it value.
Reply
#33
The End
Reply
#34
(08-12-2017, 09:42 AM)Cuzz Wrote: The End

We can hope.  Laughing
Reply
#35
(08-12-2017, 08:34 AM)Wonky3 Wrote: Sorry Vs, the link does nor work and I'm too lazy to hunt it down. Later maybe. 
By 
Vincent G. Barnes
Special to The Times


ON a recent evening, a teenage boy knocked on the door to inform me that my American flag was flying upside down. His little brother, straddling his bike in the driveway, looked on as his big brother demonstrated what it means to have the courage of one’s convictions. I informed the young man that I had hung the flag upside down on purpose. He told me that he thought it was disrespectful and that he knew people who had died for this flag.
Oh, boy. Where to start? I stepped out onto the porch and said, “Do you want to talk about this?” He reiterated that it was disrespectful. I tried to establish some legitimacy to my gesture. “My family members have served in the military,” I said, assuming that his concern was a matter of patriotism and that my hanging the flag upside down was an attack on this country. Unfortunately, we did not get much further than that. The conversation ended after a few more words, as it was probably destined to, with his retreating from my porch, secure in his position and proud of his effort, and me going back inside, only too late thinking of what I should have said.

First, I do respect the young man’s courage. What I wish I’d had the time and wherewithal to say was that an upside down flag is a symbol of distress. I do not mean any disrespect to this country and its institutions, to the flag, or to active military personnel or veterans. In fact, I love this country, warts and all. While I chose to serve in the U.S. Peace Corps, rather than the military like my father and brother, and having been a college teacher for close to 30 years, I do believe I have some credibility as an American. And that is precisely why I am registering my concern in a visible, visceral way.
Disrespectful? Who could be more disrespectful than President Donald Trump? He has disrespected an entire religion, women, immigrants, a neighboring country, our allies, civil servants, the intelligence community and the free press. He has disrespected the intelligence and the basic goodness of Americans by repeatedly lying right into the camera. By appointing completely unqualified people to head them, he has disrespected the hard work of government agencies to make this a stronger, safer country.

A case in point: Among America’s greatest accomplishments are its environmental laws like the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act. While China and India choke on smog and most of the world must rely on bottled water, Americans can, for the most part, breathe clean air and drink water right out of the tap. You can thank federal leadership, including many Republicans who recognize that without a livable planet, none of our other arguments even matter.
As part of our brief conversation on my porch, I also told the young man I’m deeply worried about our country. He quipped, “I was until January 20th.” The teacher in me would have liked to ask, “Why? On what do you base this?” If he could have shown me that our economy, crime rate, international standing, environment, health care, security, not to mention civility, were worse off under Obama, I would have been impressed. I only hope he went home to do his homework by reading, arming himself with facts instead of jingoistic expressions overheard from Mom and Dad, and sharpening his reasoning skills, instead of planning how he might vandalize my home in retribution for my disrespect for his flag. Well, one can hope.
Reply
#36
Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference. But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is. You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation. But it does to some people. Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic) But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way. The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.
Reply
#37
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.
Reply
#38
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.

Wonky, it's not your views that are in confusion. We get that. Your beginning to sound like one of those alt-right nationalists that can't understand any opinion but their own. Understanding a point doesn't mean you have to agree.
Reply
#39
(08-12-2017, 10:54 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.

Wonky, it's not your views that are in confusion. We get that. Your beginning to sound like one of those alt-right nationalists that can't understand any opinion but their own. Understanding a point doesn't mean you have to agree.

True. But to reinvent history is more than "having your own opinion" 

Point: (yet again)  The Nazi flag is a symbol for a bunch of guys who made some mistakes but they fought bravely, honored their families and local culture, so we should understand the affection they have for that flag. Maybe if you visit Berlin you will find a statue honoring Hitler. (Keep looking). Maybe in the Black Forest you will find guys dressed in SS uniforms reenacting WW2. (Look hard and long) 

NOT IN MY WORLD! My "opinion" won't allow that! I know the facts. 

I have an opinion about the flag of the CSA because I have read a bit of history. My opinion is fact based, and you can't dispute the reality of that history.
Reply
#40
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.


You know what, Wonky, you are being very passive aggressive with me.

This is an old technique of yours with me.  When we get to a disagreement point, you start to attack my writing style.  It's very transparent and very cheap and frankly, immature.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)