Help with a flag photo
#41
(08-12-2017, 02:08 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.


You know what, Wonky, you are being very passive aggressive with me.

This is an old technique of yours with me.  When we get to a disagreement point, you start to attack my writing style.  It's very transparent and very cheap and frankly, immature.

Tia, I am sincerely sorry if I offended you. If I am "passive-aggressive" I regret it and will watch for it and try my best to correct it. 
I truly did not completely understand your post, and attempted to rewrite it in my mind...I don't think I did that well. 
I really wanted to understand and join with you in the comparison of John Lennon's death and the way we now see the Civil War after all these years. I do understand that time can change things. 
Just not history. 
I tried...I really did. I just could not truly make the connection well enough to square the circle. 
I'll make an attempt to pay close attention to your posts and not reply without understanding your complete thought. 
I don't want to offend you and am sorry that I did. It was not intentional.
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#42
(08-12-2017, 02:25 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 02:08 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.


You know what, Wonky, you are being very passive aggressive with me.

This is an old technique of yours with me.  When we get to a disagreement point, you start to attack my writing style.  It's very transparent and very cheap and frankly, immature.

Tia, I am sincerely sorry if I offended you. If I am "passive-aggressive" I regret it and will watch for it and try my best to correct it. 
I truly did not completely understand your post, and attempted to rewrite it in my mind...I don't think I did that well. 
I really wanted to understand and join with you in the comparison of John Lennon's death and the way we now see the Civil War after all these years. I do understand that time can change things. 
Just not history. 
I tried...I really did. I just could not truly make the connection well enough to square the circle. 
I'll make an attempt to pay close attention to your posts and not reply without understanding your complete thought. 
I don't want to offend you and am sorry that I did. It was not intentional.

 I'm talking about #37 in this thread.  That's another post entirely. But instead of admitting to that,  you instead take it back to an earlier post, trying to obfuscate my point.   And  now, you did it again. Your snarky little remarks about my writing style. Not the first time and probably not the last from the biggest advocate of  "forum civility" around these parts.

Cheap.  Very cheap.
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#43
(08-12-2017, 02:08 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.


You know what, Wonky, you are being very passive aggressive with me.

This is an old technique of yours with me.  When we get to a disagreement point, you start to attack my writing style.  It's very transparent and very cheap and frankly, immature.
So, I went back and looked at #37.
I STILL don't really get the point you made. Most likely obvious to you (an maybe others) 
So, let's call that my lack of understanding. I guess it would best if I didn't respond to things I'm not clear about. 
But there is one caveat that is important (to me, at least). Just because I don't agree with what I'm guessing you posted does not make me wrong, or all the things you called me in the post above. 

More, I can't do or say except I don't want to make you angry and I don't want to be someone you think of as "the enemy".
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#44
(08-12-2017, 08:34 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 09:35 PM)Valuesize Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 07:21 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 06:27 PM)Cuzz Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 06:03 PM)tvguy Wrote: In other words Wonky didn't listen to a single word you said.


Juniper....Wonky, when you see the American flag, do you think:  This is my flag which represents the genocide of an entire continental mass of indigenous people?

Wonky.....no, I don't think of those things when I see our flag. I'm aware of our history, and accept it in total. I am thankful for the freedoms I enjoy because of the many who sacrificed to make it possible, and I salute the flag as a symbol, accepting the aggregate of our historical actions. On balance, I am proud of the history of our society even as I recognize it's transgressions.

OK Wonky So YOU look at the American flag and YOU CHOOSE what YOU think it represents.

But no one else can do the same when they see the confederate flag?
No one else can do the exact same thing you do. Because as you keep saying the confederate flag can ONLY represent one thing. Rolling Eyes

 


Everybody does that. Everyone has their own reaction to any symbol. There isn't any disagreement that anyone has the right to flout any flag they want. Likewise I have the right to think they are asses for doing so.

Personally I think flags are silly things to get all serious about. Any flag. It's just a hunk of cloth.
Yeah For me I've never cared if some jerk wants to burn a flag. I don't see that its a dishonor for those who fought and died for our country.
I see it's a hunk of cloth that merely represents our country. People in our country have a right to burn a flag it's in the freaking constitution. It's called freedom of speech and isn't "freedom" what we fight for?

Well I like what this particular thread has morphed into.  Big Grin If I had a flag (I need to get one) I would be hanging it upside down as a sign of our country being in distress since the current president has taken office. (Actually since he was elected) 

This is a good opinion piece that pretty much sums up my thoughts on this so read it if you choose.

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/why-...side-down/

[Image: us-flag-upside-down-370x229.jpg]

Sorry Vs, the link does nor work and I'm too lazy to hunt it down. Later maybe. 

Well, we have about kicked this issue to death. I'll kick it one last time. 

Above, a some folks have said I expressed my OPINION and suggested it's "only" my opinion. To some extent that is true. But, when we offer opinions we can wing out and say, for instance, that "in my opinion Guam is going to tip over." An opinion, but a goofy one devoid of fact. 
On the other hand if I say it's my opinion that the overuse of antibiotics is making is making us resistant to the use of drugs that might otherwise help stave off infections, my opinion is largely fact based. 
When I said the the "Stars and Bars" was the battle flag of the CSA I was stating a fact. It is also a fact the the CSA rebelled against the government of the United States of America and made war against us that was the most bloody war in our history. And they did it flying the Stars and Bars. 
That's simply a fact. 
The CSA was defeated, we went through Reconstruction and Jim Crow, and our country was made whole again. 
What remains is the flag used to represent and support that rebellion. It's the same flag. (After they were defeated, the German people rejected the Nazi flag, the Japanese rejected the Rising Sun flag and returned to the historical flag)

Then, Juniper in a post above attempted to equate the death of John Lennon and how we remember that, to the way we now think of the Rebel Flag. I tried my best to see her point and stretched to agree, at least in part. I was a chore because I had some difficulty in parsing her remarks. Still, maybe some kind of connection, however remote. Her point: Things change. True. But history doesn't. 

So, for my part I'm putting this to bed. I'll continue to think the Rebel Flag is without any honor, and if not as evil as the Swastika, it remains a symbol of death and destruction fostered by a society of slave owning elitists who chose war in an attempt to save a failing economic system and preserve a government that continued to allow the owing of other human beings and use them as free labor.

It's only my opinion, but you can't deny history and the tragic events that were so costly in blood and treasure. 

If you want to see the Rebel Flag as something other than the battle flag of that rogue nation, you may, of course do that, but your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. 

Do I really care all that much? No. I have never attempted to remove the Stars and Bars when I see it, nor have I ever approached anyone displaying it and made comments about it. 

But, my opinion will remain, and I'll insist it is based on the reality of history and what that symbol means. Further, I'll continue to believe that symbols are important. Our American flag too, is a symbol, it's history flawed, but redeemed by  sacrifice and the evolution of changing attitudes that give it value.

I was never arguing against your opinion. I don't particular care what your opinion is. My only point the entire time is that YOU don't know what is in the minds of every single person who flies the confederate flag. Unless maybe you are GOD almighty..Are you?

That's where the argument was. And you want to put this to bed with yet another history lesson?
NO ONE has argued about the history.. NO ONE
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#45
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Exactly.
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#46
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.

 FFS you couldn't figure out what she said?
Reply
#47
(08-12-2017, 04:34 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.

 FFS you couldn't figure out what she said?
Oh, he knew what I meant. It's Wonky's fallback to start demeaning me, rather subtly, but still demeaning. He's done this for years and years.
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#48
(08-12-2017, 05:19 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 04:34 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.

 FFS you couldn't figure out what she said?
Oh, he knew what I meant. It's Wonky's fallback to start demeaning me, rather subtly, but still demeaning. He's done this for years and years.

I've already expressed my failings in how I've responded to your posts and tried to make clear that I will make a sincere effort to "clean it up". More than that I can't do. 
I value this space and hope to continue to be involved in the exchanges here, but it's fraught with minefields. It's a little like Mr. Trump's tweets in that we very often reply in "real time", and maybe I don't reflect long enough on the words I choose when responding. But, to keep up with the flow of dialog here and stay in context, it's often necessary to post "off the cuff", without lots of time to compose responses. 

TVguy: I don't know what FFS means. Maybe we should have a reference section in our user section listing all the acronyms commonly used.
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#49
(08-13-2017, 07:51 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 05:19 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 04:34 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:00 AM)Juniper Wrote: Just to be crystal clear, Wonky, I did not "equate" Lennon's murder as a comparison to how we see the Confederate flag. I was looking for examples of how time colors perceptions. It's a subtle difference.  But that's not really the point. The point isn't how you see the Confederate flag. The point is, you say it is the the only way to see it no matter who you are or what your background is.  You said this even while saying that to you, the United States Flag doesn't represent racial annihilation.  But it does to some people.  Your "opinion" will be based on some social attitudes that neglect the truth of history. (sic)  But apparently they are wrong because you don't see that way.  The people who don't view the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression are incorrect. They can't feel or relate correctly.

Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.

 FFS you couldn't figure out what she said?
Oh, he knew what I meant. It's Wonky's fallback to start demeaning me, rather subtly, but still demeaning. He's done this for years and years.

I've already expressed my failings in how I've responded to your posts and tried to make clear that I will make a sincere effort to "clean it up". More than that I can't do. 
I value this space and hope to continue to be involved in the exchanges here, but it's fraught with minefields. It's a little like Mr. Trump's tweets in that we very often reply in "real time", and maybe I don't reflect long enough on the words I choose when responding. But, to keep up with the flow of dialog here and stay in context, it's often necessary to post "off the cuff", without lots of time to compose responses. 

TVguy: I don't know what FFS means. Maybe we should have a reference section in our user section listing all the acronyms commonly used.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FFS
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#50
(08-13-2017, 07:53 AM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-13-2017, 07:51 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 05:19 PM)Juniper Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 04:34 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-12-2017, 10:23 AM)Wonky3 Wrote: Wow. Trying to parse that would require more talent than I have. 
I can't express my views anymore completely than I have.

 FFS you couldn't figure out what she said?
Oh, he knew what I meant. It's Wonky's fallback to start demeaning me, rather subtly, but still demeaning. He's done this for years and years.

I've already expressed my failings in how I've responded to your posts and tried to make clear that I will make a sincere effort to "clean it up". More than that I can't do. 
I value this space and hope to continue to be involved in the exchanges here, but it's fraught with minefields. It's a little like Mr. Trump's tweets in that we very often reply in "real time", and maybe I don't reflect long enough on the words I choose when responding. But, to keep up with the flow of dialog here and stay in context, it's often necessary to post "off the cuff", without lots of time to compose responses. 

TVguy: I don't know what FFS means. Maybe we should have a reference section in our user section listing all the acronyms commonly used.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FFS

I'll be damned! I guessed right this time!
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