Take a knee.
#41
(09-29-2017, 03:51 PM)Juniper Wrote: I see Christine posting about STANDING on FB.

Curious: What does "STANDING" mean?
Reply
#42
The American government pays the NFL to tell its players to stand during the national anthem
by Tyler Cowen on September 27, 2017 at 2:10 pm in Current AffairsEconomicsPolitical Science | Permalink
Via Alex — the Alex — here is the story.  Excerpt:
Quote:It turns out that from 2011-2014, the Department of Defense spent $5.4 million in contracts with 14 NFL teams for flag ceremonies. The National Guard got in on the action too, and gave $6.7 million to the NFL for the same kind of thing from 2013 to 2015.
…Before 2009, football players standing for the national anthem wasn’t even a thing. The teams stayed in the locker room until after “and the hoooome of the braaaave,” and then ran onto the field. No one was offended, and no one was on cable news eliciting tears from disrespected military families. But then, the Department of Defense and the National Guard got involved. They began to pay the NFL millions of dollars to have ostentatious flag ceremonies before games.
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There is even a whole Senate report objecting to this entire practice, with John McCain as one of the most vocal critics.  As I’ve suggested lately, maybe the ceremony really isn’t so patriotic after all.[/size]


[/size]
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#43
(09-29-2017, 04:21 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-29-2017, 03:51 PM)Juniper Wrote: I see Christine posting about STANDING on FB.

Curious: What does "STANDING" mean?

I think If she would have said "taking a knee" it would have made sense. Big Grin
Reply
#44
(09-29-2017, 04:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: The American government pays the NFL to tell its players to stand during the national anthem
by Tyler Cowen on September 27, 2017 at 2:10 pm in Current AffairsEconomicsPolitical Science | Permalink
Via Alex — the Alex — here is the story.  Excerpt:
Quote:It turns out that from 2011-2014, the Department of Defense spent $5.4 million in contracts with 14 NFL teams for flag ceremonies. The National Guard got in on the action too, and gave $6.7 million to the NFL for the same kind of thing from 2013 to 2015.
…Before 2009, football players standing for the national anthem wasn’t even a thing. The teams stayed in the locker room until after “and the hoooome of the braaaave,” and then ran onto the field. No one was offended, and no one was on cable news eliciting tears from disrespected military families. But then, the Department of Defense and the National Guard got involved. They began to pay the NFL millions of dollars to have ostentatious flag ceremonies before games.
[size=undefined][size=undefined]
There is even a whole Senate report objecting to this entire practice, with John McCain as one of the most vocal critics.  As I’ve suggested lately, maybe the ceremony really isn’t so patriotic after all.[/size]


[/size]
The American Government... more likely a division of the military that includes recruitment pays for the opportunity to have a patriotic moment where people can honor our flag and out country.
I think the vast majority of people like me think this is great.
I could care less if the NFL gets paid for the time it takes.  Given the choice I bet they would do it for nothing.

The problem with the take a knee issue is that people are not open minded enough to see WHY this is done.
I think many don't feel there actually is a racial problem. And think they are all just making things up or exaggerating.Or being uppity.
I don't see why it matters because those athletes believe there is a problem, and for a POTUS to basically spit in their face is unbelievable and can only cause more divide.
Reply
#45
(09-29-2017, 05:39 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-29-2017, 04:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: The American government pays the NFL to tell its players to stand during the national anthem
by Tyler Cowen on September 27, 2017 at 2:10 pm in Current AffairsEconomicsPolitical Science | Permalink
Via Alex — the Alex — here is the story.  Excerpt:
Quote:It turns out that from 2011-2014, the Department of Defense spent $5.4 million in contracts with 14 NFL teams for flag ceremonies. The National Guard got in on the action too, and gave $6.7 million to the NFL for the same kind of thing from 2013 to 2015.
…Before 2009, football players standing for the national anthem wasn’t even a thing. The teams stayed in the locker room until after “and the hoooome of the braaaave,” and then ran onto the field. No one was offended, and no one was on cable news eliciting tears from disrespected military families. But then, the Department of Defense and the National Guard got involved. They began to pay the NFL millions of dollars to have ostentatious flag ceremonies before games.
[size=undefined][size=undefined]
There is even a whole Senate report objecting to this entire practice, with John McCain as one of the most vocal critics.  As I’ve suggested lately, maybe the ceremony really isn’t so patriotic after all.[/size]


[/size]
The American Government... more likely a division of the military that includes recruitment pays for the opportunity to have a patriotic moment where people can honor our flag and out country.
I think the vast majority of people like me think this is great.
I could care less if the NFL gets paid for the time it takes.  Given the choice I bet they would do it for nothing.

The problem with the take a knee issue is that people are not open minded enough to see WHY this is done.
I think many don't feel there actually is a racial problem. And think they are all just making things up or exaggerating.Or being uppity.
I don't see why it matters because those athletes believe there is a problem, and for a POTUS to basically spit in their face is unbelievable and can only cause more divide.

Paying 12M+ in three years kind of cheapens the whole thing.
Reply
#46
(09-29-2017, 05:39 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-29-2017, 04:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: The American government pays the NFL to tell its players to stand during the national anthem
by Tyler Cowen on September 27, 2017 at 2:10 pm in Current AffairsEconomicsPolitical Science | Permalink
Via Alex — the Alex — here is the story.  Excerpt:
Quote:It turns out that from 2011-2014, the Department of Defense spent $5.4 million in contracts with 14 NFL teams for flag ceremonies. The National Guard got in on the action too, and gave $6.7 million to the NFL for the same kind of thing from 2013 to 2015.
…Before 2009, football players standing for the national anthem wasn’t even a thing. The teams stayed in the locker room until after “and the hoooome of the braaaave,” and then ran onto the field. No one was offended, and no one was on cable news eliciting tears from disrespected military families. But then, the Department of Defense and the National Guard got involved. They began to pay the NFL millions of dollars to have ostentatious flag ceremonies before games.
[size=undefined][size=undefined]
There is even a whole Senate report objecting to this entire practice, with John McCain as one of the most vocal critics.  As I’ve suggested lately, maybe the ceremony really isn’t so patriotic after all.[/size]


[/size]
The American Government... more likely a division of the military that includes recruitment pays for the opportunity to have a patriotic moment where people can honor our flag and out country.
I think the vast majority of people like me think this is great.
I could care less if the NFL gets paid for the time it takes.  Given the choice I bet they would do it for nothing.

The problem with the take a knee issue is that people are not open minded enough to see WHY this is done.
I think many don't feel there actually is a racial problem. And think they are all just making things up or exaggerating.Or being uppity.
I don't see why it matters because those athletes believe there is a problem, and for a POTUS to basically spit in their face is unbelievable and can only cause more divide.

It's the same people that think Obama was racist and Trump is absolutely not.  Rolling Eyes It's shocking to know how many there are though....
Reply
#47
(09-29-2017, 04:21 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-29-2017, 03:51 PM)Juniper Wrote: I see Christine posting about STANDING on FB.

Curious: What does "STANDING" mean?

She was posting against "taking a knee."
Reply
#48
I've been thinking long and hard about this... at least 5 minutes or so.  And I finally know how this works. For me anyway.

Let's start with the notion that these athletes ate not "intending" to offend the military or disrespect the flag in any way. OK, that's a fair point. But does "intention" really matter anymore? It seems to me that a double standard is in play, (by both sides). We are
not supposed to use the word "gay" anymore because some in the homosexual community get offended. It does not matter one iota if the use of the word is INTENDED to be offensive. The user of the word does not get to decide. The offended party does. There are countless examples of folks getting offended, (over nothing, IMHO), and I think that a lot of people are in the business of being offended just for the sake of it.

I'm not offended by the guys taking a knee. But I'm tired of it. I really don't watch a lot sports on TV, but now that the Raiders are contenders, (after so many years of being terrible), I've been tuning in now and then. But I find myself not interested today. I don't even know who they are playing. They can protest or not, I really don't care. The focus is no longer on the game but rather on the "issue." I guess that's what the kneelers had in mind. If so, they are getting the attention that they seek. That's fine by me. But I'm not watching. I'm not offended but I'm not that interested.

I'll probably just go on a bike ride now that it's cooled down a little.

For the record, I still maintain that Kaepernick would have NEVER began this had he not lost his starting job. And I also stand by my assertion that this entire thing would have remained a lot less newsworthy if our Blowhard-in-Chief had stayed out of it. But Trump can't stay out of anything. He's too in love with his own rhetoric.
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#49
I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.
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#50
I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.
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#51
(09-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.

This is all just a trumped up fiasco to divert attention away from the real problems he has.
Reply
#52
(09-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.
Familiar with the phrase "Upstanding citizen"? 


As we know, the flag is a symbol, nothing more. For instance, as a free people in America we are allowed to burn the flag of the United States of America and not be prosecuted by law. We are not required to honor the flag. So, about Kaepernick and others who are protesting, our objection is a moral and civic. Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they belive blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. We can object to that, but the action is protected by our constitution. 

But, we each are entitled to our own personal views. I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color" our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe. That freedom is sometimes not COMPLETE in the view of some (or many) may be true. We are blessed to live in a society where those who choose to do so can demonstrate their grievances in very public places. 

So let them "take a knee". I would not not. I want to be "upstanding" and respect the symbol of a country that while not perfect is still the one of the best places on earth to live and prosper. 
Reply
#53
(09-30-2017, 10:42 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.
Familiar with the phrase "Upstanding citizen"? 


As we know, the flag is a symbol, nothing more. For instance, as a free people in America we are allowed to burn the flag of the United States of America and not be prosecuted by law. We are not required to honor the flag. So, about Kaepernick and others who are protesting, our objection is a moral and civic. Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they belive blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. We can object to that, but the action is protected by our constitution. 

But, we each are entitled to our own personal views. I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color" our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe. That freedom is sometimes not COMPLETE in the view of some (or many) may be true. We are blessed to live in a society where those who choose to do so can demonstrate their grievances in very public places. 

So let them "take a knee". I would not not. I want to be "upstanding" and respect the symbol of a country that while not perfect is still the one of the best places on earth to live and prosper. 

I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense. I don't see "taking a knee" as offensive to anything. In fact kneeling was and still is a sign of respect and acceptance of some greater power or authority. So how is that disrespect?

As far as I can see, and I'm not following it all that closely, the people taking this action are not being disruptive, they are present and respectful of those around them during the ceremony. So what is the big deal? I think it's all a fake indignation. A trumped up indignation if you will.
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#54
I met my gal pals at a local (to me) watering hole, to carpool to a neighboring town for a Paint Nite event, on Thursday when the Bears & Packers game was starting. It was packed! When the National Anthem came on... I looked around... and for the FIRST TIME EVER some people were standing.  The hubs and I have watched MANY games at this same watering hole and this was the first time that I EVER saw a single person stand when the National Anthem came on. EVER!  So... now they care?  They sure as hell didn't before. Seems kinda fake to me... but being Americans, it is their right to be as fake as they want!  I support their freedom!
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#55
I have no issue with taking a knee and I support it. If I agree with them or not is inmaterial.
Our right of freedom of speech most be protected, otherwise we all jeopardize our right.
Their protest is most benign. No road blocks, no violence.
Reply
#56
(09-29-2017, 05:47 PM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-29-2017, 05:39 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-29-2017, 04:56 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: The American government pays the NFL to tell its players to stand during the national anthem
by Tyler Cowen on September 27, 2017 at 2:10 pm in Current AffairsEconomicsPolitical Science | Permalink
Via Alex — the Alex — here is the story.  Excerpt:
Quote:It turns out that from 2011-2014, the Department of Defense spent $5.4 million in contracts with 14 NFL teams for flag ceremonies. The National Guard got in on the action too, and gave $6.7 million to the NFL for the same kind of thing from 2013 to 2015.
…Before 2009, football players standing for the national anthem wasn’t even a thing. The teams stayed in the locker room until after “and the hoooome of the braaaave,” and then ran onto the field. No one was offended, and no one was on cable news eliciting tears from disrespected military families. But then, the Department of Defense and the National Guard got involved. They began to pay the NFL millions of dollars to have ostentatious flag ceremonies before games.
[size=undefined][size=undefined]
There is even a whole Senate report objecting to this entire practice, with John McCain as one of the most vocal critics.  As I’ve suggested lately, maybe the ceremony really isn’t so patriotic after all.[/size]


[/size]
The American Government... more likely a division of the military that includes recruitment pays for the opportunity to have a patriotic moment where people can honor our flag and out country.
I think the vast majority of people like me think this is great.
I could care less if the NFL gets paid for the time it takes.  Given the choice I bet they would do it for nothing.

The problem with the take a knee issue is that people are not open minded enough to see WHY this is done.
I think many don't feel there actually is a racial problem. And think they are all just making things up or exaggerating.Or being uppity.
I don't see why it matters because those athletes believe there is a problem, and for a POTUS to basically spit in their face is unbelievable and can only cause more divide.

Paying 12M+ in three years kind of cheapens the whole thing.

5.4 million for 16 games a year for four years from 2011-2014 . Or 48 games not counting play off games.

So I guess it's 5.4 million divided by about 50.  

That's about 100,000 per game . Regarding the time it takes Maybe the government is getting a good deal? Look how much the NFL gets for commercial air time.
I think it's like one million a minute at a super bowl game.
Reply
#57
(09-30-2017, 10:42 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.
Familiar with the phrase "Upstanding citizen"? 


As we know, the flag is a symbol, nothing more. For instance, as a free people in America we are allowed to burn the flag of the United States of America and not be prosecuted by law. We are not required to honor the flag. So, about Kaepernick and others who are protesting, our objection is a moral and civic. Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they belive blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. We can object to that, but the action is protected by our constitution. 

But, we each are entitled to our own personal views. I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color" our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe. That freedom is sometimes not COMPLETE in the view of some (or many) may be true. We are blessed to live in a society where those who choose to do so can demonstrate their grievances in very public places. 

So let them "take a knee". I would not not. I want to be "upstanding" and respect the symbol of a country that while not perfect is still the one of the best places on earth to live and prosper. 
Well said white man. Of course you would stand, so would EVERYONE here and as far as I know every single white person in the country.
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#58
(09-30-2017, 08:49 AM)bbqboy Wrote: I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.

I haven't heard that either.
Reply
#59
(09-30-2017, 03:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 08:49 AM)bbqboy Wrote: I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.

I haven't heard that either.

They are if you use it in a way that they deem offensive: Such as, "That's so gay!" 

But that's just one example. Don't tell me that you don't get the point that I was making.
Reply
#60
(09-30-2017, 06:05 PM)GCG Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 03:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 08:49 AM)bbqboy Wrote: I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.

I haven't heard that either.

They are if you use it in a way that they deem offensive: Such as, "That's so gay!" 

But that's just one example. Don't tell me that you don't get the point that I was making.
I get the "gay" is word is offensive when used that way.


But If the point you were making was that Kaipernic was just pissed at his team for taking his starting position away?
Then explain who he is giving a million bucks to charities? You may be right that part of his taking a knee was because he was pissed at his team but I still think he is sincere about what he believes.
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