Take a knee.
#61
(09-30-2017, 06:13 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 06:05 PM)GCG Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 03:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 08:49 AM)bbqboy Wrote: I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.

I haven't heard that either.

They are if you use it in a way that they deem offensive: Such as, "That's so gay!" 

But that's just one example. Don't tell me that you don't get the point that I was making.
I get the "gay" is word is offensive when used that way.


But If the point you were making was that Kaipernic was just pissed at his team for taking his starting position away?
Then explain who he is giving a million bucks to charities? You may be right that part of his taking a knee was because he was pissed at his team but I still think he is sincere about what he believes.
The Kaepernick thing was not my focus. My focus was and is that I feel that the people that are getting offended, (in this case mostly the right and the die hard Trump lovers), are no better than the same people that they whine about getting offended over nothing from the opposite side of the political spectrum. IMHO, people CHOOSE to get wound up over nothing. Personally, I have other things to concern myself over. Things that actually matter to me. This "protesting" doesn't offend me. It bores me. I had been sick of the NFL and it's over-paid whining athletes long before this came up. I had just recently started paying attention again... but now I'm not.

As to your question: My OPINION is that Kap wasn't pissed at his team for anything. He was unhappy that no one was paying attention to him. He fixed that.
Reply
#62
(09-30-2017, 06:26 PM)GCG Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 06:13 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 06:05 PM)GCG Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 03:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 08:49 AM)bbqboy Wrote: I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.

I haven't heard that either.

They are if you use it in a way that they deem offensive: Such as, "That's so gay!" 

But that's just one example. Don't tell me that you don't get the point that I was making.
I get the "gay" is word is offensive when used that way.


But If the point you were making was that Kaipernic was just pissed at his team for taking his starting position away?
Then explain who he is giving a million bucks to charities? You may be right that part of his taking a knee was because he was pissed at his team but I still think he is sincere about what he believes.
The Kaepernick thing was not my focus. My focus was and is that I feel that the people that are getting offended, (in this case mostly the right and the die hard Trump lovers), are no better than the same people that they whine about getting offended over nothing from the opposite side of the political spectrum. IMHO, people CHOOSE to get wound up over nothing. Personally, I have other things to concern myself over. Things that actually matter to me. This "protesting" doesn't offend me. It bores me. I had been sick of the NFL and it's over-paid whining athletes long before this came up. I had just recently started paying attention again... but now I'm not.

As to your question: My OPINION is that Kap wasn't pissed at his team for anything. He was unhappy that no one was paying attention to him. He fixed that.

OK I got it now Big Grin  But If I wanted to watch NFL games none of this stuff would stop me.
Reply
#63
(09-30-2017, 03:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 08:49 AM)bbqboy Wrote: I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.

I haven't heard that either.

My gay family and friends aren't.  I don't know where that was heard.  I don't believe it is true.
Reply
#64
(09-30-2017, 10:56 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:42 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.
Familiar with the phrase "Upstanding citizen"? 


As we know, the flag is a symbol, nothing more. For instance, as a free people in America we are allowed to burn the flag of the United States of America and not be prosecuted by law. We are not required to honor the flag. So, about Kaepernick and others who are protesting, our objection is a moral and civic. Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they belive blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. We can object to that, but the action is protected by our constitution. 

But, we each are entitled to our own personal views. I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color" our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe. That freedom is sometimes not COMPLETE in the view of some (or many) may be true. We are blessed to live in a society where those who choose to do so can demonstrate their grievances in very public places. 

So let them "take a knee". I would not not. I want to be "upstanding" and respect the symbol of a country that while not perfect is still the one of the best places on earth to live and prosper. 

I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense. I don't see "taking a knee" as offensive to anything. In fact kneeling was and still is a sign of respect and acceptance of some greater power or authority. So how is that disrespect?

As far as I can see, and I'm not following it all that closely, the people taking this action are not being disruptive, they are present and respectful of those around them during the ceremony. So what is the big deal? I think it's all a fake indignation. A trumped up indignation if you will.
"I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense." 

I've reread my post a couple of times. I don't feel I'm playing word gymnastics and I don't think I was in any way trying to create the illusion of offense. 
But maybe you can make me see the light.
Please do.
Reply
#65
(09-30-2017, 07:02 PM)Scrapper Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 03:48 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 08:49 AM)bbqboy Wrote: I didn't know gay people were offended by the term gay people.

I haven't heard that either.

My gay family and friends aren't.  I don't know where that was heard.  I don't believe it is true.

It's not the term "gay" it's the phrase... it's the phrase "That's so gay!"
Reply
#66
[Image: 468e6e970159b55282ee0ab5e8c56020.jpg]

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
Reply
#67
(10-01-2017, 07:13 AM)Scrapper Wrote: [Image: 468e6e970159b55282ee0ab5e8c56020.jpg]

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
Yes, Injustice is cruel and painful.
And varies in it's intensity and harm. 

Rosa Parks was protesting against a rigid practice of racial segregation that even dictated her seat on a public bus. In the segregated south even blacks of privilege had to sit "in the back of the bus". 

Mahatma Gandhi was protesting the high price of salt and the colonial oppression of a foreign power. The British allowed Indians places of some privilege but never the reigns  of power. (In the US we have had a black president) 

It's less clear what the players in the NFL are protesting, even as we acknowledge the injustice some blacks suffer. We now live in a society where many blacks have privileges scores of poor white people (and others) do not enjoy. NFL players for instance, enjoy privileges most do not. 

Let the players (and owners) continue, and let the nation engage in a conversation to finally find a solution for the behaviors of all those involved. All blacks (and nonwhites) should feel safe on our streets, free to live where they choose, and be unencumbered in the search for success. You know...like Oprah Winfrey. 




 
Reply
#68
(09-30-2017, 07:55 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:56 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:42 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.
Familiar with the phrase "Upstanding citizen"? 


As we know, the flag is a symbol, nothing more. For instance, as a free people in America we are allowed to burn the flag of the United States of America and not be prosecuted by law. We are not required to honor the flag. So, about Kaepernick and others who are protesting, our objection is a moral and civic. Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they belive blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. We can object to that, but the action is protected by our constitution. 

But, we each are entitled to our own personal views. I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color" our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe. That freedom is sometimes not COMPLETE in the view of some (or many) may be true. We are blessed to live in a society where those who choose to do so can demonstrate their grievances in very public places. 

So let them "take a knee". I would not not. I want to be "upstanding" and respect the symbol of a country that while not perfect is still the one of the best places on earth to live and prosper. 

I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense. I don't see "taking a knee" as offensive to anything. In fact kneeling was and still is a sign of respect and acceptance of some greater power or authority. So how is that disrespect?

As far as I can see, and I'm not following it all that closely, the people taking this action are not being disruptive, they are present and respectful of those around them during the ceremony. So what is the big deal? I think it's all a fake indignation. A trumped up indignation if you will.
"I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense." 

I've reread my post a couple of times. I don't feel I'm playing word gymnastics and I don't think I was in any way trying to create the illusion of offense. 
But maybe you can make me see the light.
Please do.

No? OK, maybe thought gymnastics then.

You say "upstanding citizen", what does that even mean? It means whatever the you want it to mean. You might say someone who respects the flag, stands and places their hand over their heart and recites the pledge like in school, rote and without thought. I would say someone who is honest and compassionate and tries to make their country a better place now and for the future.

"Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they believe blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. (wonky)"  So you know better what they are doing then they do? They have said they are protesting the treatment they and their families and friends receive in their daily life and they want to be treated equally to whites. I believe they are being honest. But, you say "Oh no! you are dishonoring the flag!" I ask where is the dishonor? They are not disruptive, they're not in anybodies face, they are being respectful of those around them during the ceremony and they're kneeling for crying out loud. How is that disrespectful?? Please explain.

Then this, "I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color... our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe." I'm guessing you didn't mean that exactly. It comes across as arrogant and condescending as hell. "Even for "people of color.." "our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places" ?? Really? Like you're doing them a favor by allowing them a few freedoms more then they would find in the worst shit hole in the world and they should be content with that? That's mighty white of you.

You can disagree with them if you want but you shouldn't misrepresent them. Ignoring their statements and actions and claiming something entirely else to defame them is what trump does. Don't be like trump.
Reply
#69
(10-01-2017, 08:47 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 07:55 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:56 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:42 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:04 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out how kneeling is offensive to the flag or otherwise.
Familiar with the phrase "Upstanding citizen"? 


As we know, the flag is a symbol, nothing more. For instance, as a free people in America we are allowed to burn the flag of the United States of America and not be prosecuted by law. We are not required to honor the flag. So, about Kaepernick and others who are protesting, our objection is a moral and civic. Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they belive blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. We can object to that, but the action is protected by our constitution. 

But, we each are entitled to our own personal views. I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color" our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe. That freedom is sometimes not COMPLETE in the view of some (or many) may be true. We are blessed to live in a society where those who choose to do so can demonstrate their grievances in very public places. 

So let them "take a knee". I would not not. I want to be "upstanding" and respect the symbol of a country that while not perfect is still the one of the best places on earth to live and prosper. 

I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense. I don't see "taking a knee" as offensive to anything. In fact kneeling was and still is a sign of respect and acceptance of some greater power or authority. So how is that disrespect?

As far as I can see, and I'm not following it all that closely, the people taking this action are not being disruptive, they are present and respectful of those around them during the ceremony. So what is the big deal? I think it's all a fake indignation. A trumped up indignation if you will.
"I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense." 

I've reread my post a couple of times. I don't feel I'm playing word gymnastics and I don't think I was in any way trying to create the illusion of offense. 
But maybe you can make me see the light.
Please do.

No? OK, maybe thought gymnastics then.

You say "upstanding citizen", what does that even mean? It means whatever the you want it to mean. You might say someone who respects the flag, stands and places their hand over their heart and recites the pledge like in school, rote and without thought. I would say someone who is honest and compassionate and tries to make their country a better place now and for the future.

"Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they believe blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. (wonky)"  So you know better what they are doing then they do? They have said they are protesting the treatment they and their families and friends receive in their daily  life and they want to be treated equally to whites. I believe they are being honest. But, you say "Oh no! you are dishonoring the flag!" I ask where is the dishonor? They are not disruptive, they're not in anybodies face, they are being respectful of those around them during the ceremony and they're kneeling for crying out loud. How is that disrespectful?? Please explain.

Then this, "I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color... our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe." I'm guessing you didn't mean that exactly. It comes across as arrogant and condescending as hell. "Even for "people of color.." "our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places" ?? Really? Like you're doing them a favor by allowing them a few freedoms more then they would find in the worst shit hole in the world and they should be content with that? That's mighty white of you.

You can disagree with them if you want but you shouldn't misrepresent them. Ignoring their statements and actions and claiming something entirely else to defame them is what trump does. Don't be like trump.

I wonder how carefully you read my post.
I have no problem with protesting against injustice, even by privileged NFL players. 
As I said, I'm honored to live in a country that allows protests, up to and including the burning of our flag and flying a Nazi flag. Our right to protest is a freedom granted by our constitution and I value it. 
I said I might make different choices. That's just me, and I too have freedoms.
About being "upstanding". Yes, I stand when our national anthem is played. I also stand when being introduced, when women join the table at social functions, and when the judge enters the courtroom. Being "upstanding" is simply a show of respect, something I was taught growing up.  But...we all have choices. (But you best stand when the judge enters the courtroom  Big Grin )
Reply
#70
(10-01-2017, 08:59 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:47 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 07:55 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:56 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:42 AM)Wonky3 Wrote: Familiar with the phrase "Upstanding citizen"? 


As we know, the flag is a symbol, nothing more. For instance, as a free people in America we are allowed to burn the flag of the United States of America and not be prosecuted by law. We are not required to honor the flag. So, about Kaepernick and others who are protesting, our objection is a moral and civic. Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they belive blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. We can object to that, but the action is protected by our constitution. 

But, we each are entitled to our own personal views. I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color" our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe. That freedom is sometimes not COMPLETE in the view of some (or many) may be true. We are blessed to live in a society where those who choose to do so can demonstrate their grievances in very public places. 

So let them "take a knee". I would not not. I want to be "upstanding" and respect the symbol of a country that while not perfect is still the one of the best places on earth to live and prosper. 

I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense. I don't see "taking a knee" as offensive to anything. In fact kneeling was and still is a sign of respect and acceptance of some greater power or authority. So how is that disrespect?

As far as I can see, and I'm not following it all that closely, the people taking this action are not being disruptive, they are present and respectful of those around them during the ceremony. So what is the big deal? I think it's all a fake indignation. A trumped up indignation if you will.
"I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense." 

I've reread my post a couple of times. I don't feel I'm playing word gymnastics and I don't think I was in any way trying to create the illusion of offense. 
But maybe you can make me see the light.
Please do.

No? OK, maybe thought gymnastics then.

You say "upstanding citizen", what does that even mean? It means whatever the you want it to mean. You might say someone who respects the flag, stands and places their hand over their heart and recites the pledge like in school, rote and without thought. I would say someone who is honest and compassionate and tries to make their country a better place now and for the future.

"Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they believe blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. (wonky)"  So you know better what they are doing then they do? They have said they are protesting the treatment they and their families and friends receive in their daily  life and they want to be treated equally to whites. I believe they are being honest. But, you say "Oh no! you are dishonoring the flag!" I ask where is the dishonor? They are not disruptive, they're not in anybodies face, they are being respectful of those around them during the ceremony and they're kneeling for crying out loud. How is that disrespectful?? Please explain.

Then this, "I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color... our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe." I'm guessing you didn't mean that exactly. It comes across as arrogant and condescending as hell. "Even for "people of color.." "our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places" ?? Really? Like you're doing them a favor by allowing them a few freedoms more then they would find in the worst shit hole in the world and they should be content with that? That's mighty white of you.

You can disagree with them if you want but you shouldn't misrepresent them. Ignoring their statements and actions and claiming something entirely else to defame them is what trump does. Don't be like trump.

I wonder how carefully you read my post.
I have no problem with protesting against injustice, even by privileged NFL players. 
As I said, I'm honored to live in a country that allows protests, up to and including the burning of our flag and flying a Nazi flag. Our right to protest is a freedom granted by our constitution and I value it. 
I said I might make different choices. That's just me, and I too have freedoms.
About being "upstanding". Yes, I stand when our national anthem is played. I also stand when being introduced, when women join the table at social functions, and when the judge enters the courtroom. Being "upstanding" is simply a show of respect, something I was taught growing up.  But...we all have choices. (But you best stand when the judge enters the courtroom  Big Grin )

You are a product of your generation.
Reply
#71
(10-01-2017, 09:03 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:59 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:47 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 07:55 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 10:56 AM)Cuzz Wrote: I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense. I don't see "taking a knee" as offensive to anything. In fact kneeling was and still is a sign of respect and acceptance of some greater power or authority. So how is that disrespect?

As far as I can see, and I'm not following it all that closely, the people taking this action are not being disruptive, they are present and respectful of those around them during the ceremony. So what is the big deal? I think it's all a fake indignation. A trumped up indignation if you will.
"I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense." 

I've reread my post a couple of times. I don't feel I'm playing word gymnastics and I don't think I was in any way trying to create the illusion of offense. 
But maybe you can make me see the light.
Please do.

No? OK, maybe thought gymnastics then.

You say "upstanding citizen", what does that even mean? It means whatever the you want it to mean. You might say someone who respects the flag, stands and places their hand over their heart and recites the pledge like in school, rote and without thought. I would say someone who is honest and compassionate and tries to make their country a better place now and for the future.

"Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they believe blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. (wonky)"  So you know better what they are doing then they do? They have said they are protesting the treatment they and their families and friends receive in their daily  life and they want to be treated equally to whites. I believe they are being honest. But, you say "Oh no! you are dishonoring the flag!" I ask where is the dishonor? They are not disruptive, they're not in anybodies face, they are being respectful of those around them during the ceremony and they're kneeling for crying out loud. How is that disrespectful?? Please explain.

Then this, "I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color... our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe." I'm guessing you didn't mean that exactly. It comes across as arrogant and condescending as hell. "Even for "people of color.." "our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places" ?? Really? Like you're doing them a favor by allowing them a few freedoms more then they would find in the worst shit hole in the world and they should be content with that? That's mighty white of you.

You can disagree with them if you want but you shouldn't misrepresent them. Ignoring their statements and actions and claiming something entirely else to defame them is what trump does. Don't be like trump.

I wonder how carefully you read my post.
I have no problem with protesting against injustice, even by privileged NFL players. 
As I said, I'm honored to live in a country that allows protests, up to and including the burning of our flag and flying a Nazi flag. Our right to protest is a freedom granted by our constitution and I value it. 
I said I might make different choices. That's just me, and I too have freedoms.
About being "upstanding". Yes, I stand when our national anthem is played. I also stand when being introduced, when women join the table at social functions, and when the judge enters the courtroom. Being "upstanding" is simply a show of respect, something I was taught growing up.  But...we all have choices. (But you best stand when the judge enters the courtroom  Big Grin )

You are a product of your generation.
I hope so. Some social behaviors remain because they have value.
Reply
#72
(10-01-2017, 09:07 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:03 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:59 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:47 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(09-30-2017, 07:55 PM)Wonky3 Wrote: "I think you're playing word gymnastics to create the illusion of an offense." 

I've reread my post a couple of times. I don't feel I'm playing word gymnastics and I don't think I was in any way trying to create the illusion of offense. 
But maybe you can make me see the light.
Please do.

No? OK, maybe thought gymnastics then.

You say "upstanding citizen", what does that even mean? It means whatever the you want it to mean. You might say someone who respects the flag, stands and places their hand over their heart and recites the pledge like in school, rote and without thought. I would say someone who is honest and compassionate and tries to make their country a better place now and for the future.

"Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they believe blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. (wonky)"  So you know better what they are doing then they do? They have said they are protesting the treatment they and their families and friends receive in their daily  life and they want to be treated equally to whites. I believe they are being honest. But, you say "Oh no! you are dishonoring the flag!" I ask where is the dishonor? They are not disruptive, they're not in anybodies face, they are being respectful of those around them during the ceremony and they're kneeling for crying out loud. How is that disrespectful?? Please explain.

Then this, "I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color... our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe." I'm guessing you didn't mean that exactly. It comes across as arrogant and condescending as hell. "Even for "people of color.." "our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places" ?? Really? Like you're doing them a favor by allowing them a few freedoms more then they would find in the worst shit hole in the world and they should be content with that? That's mighty white of you.

You can disagree with them if you want but you shouldn't misrepresent them. Ignoring their statements and actions and claiming something entirely else to defame them is what trump does. Don't be like trump.

I wonder how carefully you read my post.
I have no problem with protesting against injustice, even by privileged NFL players. 
As I said, I'm honored to live in a country that allows protests, up to and including the burning of our flag and flying a Nazi flag. Our right to protest is a freedom granted by our constitution and I value it. 
I said I might make different choices. That's just me, and I too have freedoms.
About being "upstanding". Yes, I stand when our national anthem is played. I also stand when being introduced, when women join the table at social functions, and when the judge enters the courtroom. Being "upstanding" is simply a show of respect, something I was taught growing up.  But...we all have choices. (But you best stand when the judge enters the courtroom  Big Grin )

You are a product of your generation.
I hope so. Some social behaviors remain because they have value.

And some remain due to blindness and apathy.
Reply
#73
(10-01-2017, 09:18 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:07 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:03 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:59 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:47 AM)Cuzz Wrote: No? OK, maybe thought gymnastics then.

You say "upstanding citizen", what does that even mean? It means whatever the you want it to mean. You might say someone who respects the flag, stands and places their hand over their heart and recites the pledge like in school, rote and without thought. I would say someone who is honest and compassionate and tries to make their country a better place now and for the future.

"Those who are protesting are claiming to do so because they believe blacks in our country are being unfairly treated, especially by the police, and they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events. (wonky)"  So you know better what they are doing then they do? They have said they are protesting the treatment they and their families and friends receive in their daily  life and they want to be treated equally to whites. I believe they are being honest. But, you say "Oh no! you are dishonoring the flag!" I ask where is the dishonor? They are not disruptive, they're not in anybodies face, they are being respectful of those around them during the ceremony and they're kneeling for crying out loud. How is that disrespectful?? Please explain.

Then this, "I show respect and honor our flag for the symbol of freedom it provides. And even for "people of color...whatever color... our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places on the globe." I'm guessing you didn't mean that exactly. It comes across as arrogant and condescending as hell. "Even for "people of color.." "our country provides freedoms they would not otherwise enjoy in many places" ?? Really? Like you're doing them a favor by allowing them a few freedoms more then they would find in the worst shit hole in the world and they should be content with that? That's mighty white of you.

You can disagree with them if you want but you shouldn't misrepresent them. Ignoring their statements and actions and claiming something entirely else to defame them is what trump does. Don't be like trump.

I wonder how carefully you read my post.
I have no problem with protesting against injustice, even by privileged NFL players. 
As I said, I'm honored to live in a country that allows protests, up to and including the burning of our flag and flying a Nazi flag. Our right to protest is a freedom granted by our constitution and I value it. 
I said I might make different choices. That's just me, and I too have freedoms.
About being "upstanding". Yes, I stand when our national anthem is played. I also stand when being introduced, when women join the table at social functions, and when the judge enters the courtroom. Being "upstanding" is simply a show of respect, something I was taught growing up.  But...we all have choices. (But you best stand when the judge enters the courtroom  Big Grin )

You are a product of your generation.
I hope so. Some social behaviors remain because they have value.

And some remain due to blindness and apathy.
Could be. Name a couple.
Reply
#74
(10-01-2017, 09:33 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:18 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:07 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:03 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:59 AM)Wonky3 Wrote: I wonder how carefully you read my post.
I have no problem with protesting against injustice, even by privileged NFL players. 
As I said, I'm honored to live in a country that allows protests, up to and including the burning of our flag and flying a Nazi flag. Our right to protest is a freedom granted by our constitution and I value it. 
I said I might make different choices. That's just me, and I too have freedoms.
About being "upstanding". Yes, I stand when our national anthem is played. I also stand when being introduced, when women join the table at social functions, and when the judge enters the courtroom. Being "upstanding" is simply a show of respect, something I was taught growing up.  But...we all have choices. (But you best stand when the judge enters the courtroom  Big Grin )

You are a product of your generation.
I hope so. Some social behaviors remain because they have value.

And some remain due to blindness and apathy.
Could be. Name a couple.

I'd be glad to have that discussion just as soon as you explain to me how the actions of the NFL players are being disrespectful to ... anything. Please be more specific then just because you say so.

As an aside, I can't believe I'm actually defending a group of professional big league ballplayers I never cared about. But I think they are being attacked not because they did anything wrong, but because they refuse to go along. That and some people are played too easily.
Reply
#75
(10-01-2017, 10:41 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:33 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:18 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:07 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:03 AM)Cuzz Wrote: You are a product of your generation.
I hope so. Some social behaviors remain because they have value.

And some remain due to blindness and apathy.
Could be. Name a couple.

I'd be glad to have that discussion just as soon as you explain to me how the actions of the NFL players are being disrespectful to ... anything. Please be more specific then just because you say so.

As an aside, I can't believe I'm actually defending a group of professional big league ballplayers I never cared about. But I think they are being attacked not because they did anything wrong, but because they refuse to go along. That and some people are played too easily.
I'm not sure I made a case that the NFL players were being disrecptpful. That's a judgment, and I don't think I did that.
So...
I went back to post #52 (I had not made any significant comments until then) and looked at it again. I'd invite you to do the same. 

I was clear about MY OWN views in respecting the flag but was also clear that those who are "taking a knee" have every right (even constitutional) in doing it. So, I would not take a knee. It does not follow that I see those who do of being disrespectful. We have different values and attitudes. I don't condemn them: I just don't admire that action, because while they have a right to do it, they demonstrate not only against the evils they see but against the entire history and sacrifices the flag represents. See, the flag is OUR flag...all of us. Mine too. 

You suggested that because of my age I am blind and apathetic. Again, I ask you to give examples of that. I am old. I have never been accused (before) of being apathetic and If I'm blind to something you see clearly, I again ask you to show an example of that. 

I remain "upstanding" for the reasons I explained earlier. Others are free to do as they wish. I respect their right to do it. I am not required to admire it.
Reply
#76
(10-01-2017, 12:21 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 10:41 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:33 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:18 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:07 AM)Wonky3 Wrote: I hope so. Some social behaviors remain because they have value.

And some remain due to blindness and apathy.
Could be. Name a couple.

I'd be glad to have that discussion just as soon as you explain to me how the actions of the NFL players are being disrespectful to ... anything. Please be more specific then just because you say so.

As an aside, I can't believe I'm actually defending a group of professional big league ballplayers I never cared about. But I think they are being attacked not because they did anything wrong, but because they refuse to go along. That and some people are played too easily.
I'm not sure I made a case that the NFL players were being disrecptpful. That's a judgment, and I don't think I did that.
So...
I went back to post #52 (I had not made any significant comments until then) and looked at it again. I'd invite you to do the same. 

I was clear about MY OWN views in respecting the flag but was also clear that those who are "taking a knee" have every right (even constitutional) in doing it. So, I would not take a knee. It does not follow that I see those who do of being disrespectful. We have different values and attitudes. I don't condemn them: I just don't admire that action, because while they have a right to do it, they demonstrate not only against the evils they see but against the entire history and sacrifices the flag represents. See, the flag is OUR flag...all of us. Mine too. 

You suggested that because of my age I am blind and apathetic. Again, I ask you to give examples of that. I am old. I have never been accused (before) of being apathetic and If I'm blind to something you see clearly, I again ask you to show an example of that. 

I remain "upstanding" for the reasons I explained earlier. Others are free to do as they wish. I respect their right to do it. I am not required to admire it.

In post #52 you said "they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events." I would interpret "not honoring" as being disrespectful in that usage. Besides as I have explained multiple times, I don't see any dishonor or disrespect going on. On the contrary I think they are trying to gain their cause visibility while not causing offense. It's just that some have promoted their action as controversial by changing the narrative. That's a purely political tactic.

And just now you say " they demonstrate not only against the evils they see but against the entire history and sacrifices the flag represents." I think that is a HUGE leap in judgement that isn't supported in fact. I believe they, or some of them, stated they are NOT attempting to dishonor the flag yet you have decided they are because you say so. In the same paragraph you say "It does not follow that I see those who do of being disrespectful." So which is it?

As far as "You suggested that because of my age I am blind and apathetic." I did not say that. You claimed some social behaviors remained because they had value. I was pointing out that some are clung to that probably shouldn't be. I did not accuse you. That's something you and everyone needs to examine for themselves.

You can stand up all you want, it doesn't automatically make you "upstanding".

(I think someone on here has several times admonished that "words have meanings". Wonder who that was.)
Reply
#77
(10-01-2017, 01:40 PM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 12:21 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 10:41 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:33 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 09:18 AM)Cuzz Wrote: And some remain due to blindness and apathy.
Could be. Name a couple.

I'd be glad to have that discussion just as soon as you explain to me how the actions of the NFL players are being disrespectful to ... anything. Please be more specific then just because you say so.

As an aside, I can't believe I'm actually defending a group of professional big league ballplayers I never cared about. But I think they are being attacked not because they did anything wrong, but because they refuse to go along. That and some people are played too easily.
I'm not sure I made a case that the NFL players were being disrecptpful. That's a judgment, and I don't think I did that.
So...
I went back to post #52 (I had not made any significant comments until then) and looked at it again. I'd invite you to do the same. 

I was clear about MY OWN views in respecting the flag but was also clear that those who are "taking a knee" have every right (even constitutional) in doing it. So, I would not take a knee. It does not follow that I see those who do of being disrespectful. We have different values and attitudes. I don't condemn them: I just don't admire that action, because while they have a right to do it, they demonstrate not only against the evils they see but against the entire history and sacrifices the flag represents. See, the flag is OUR flag...all of us. Mine too. 

You suggested that because of my age I am blind and apathetic. Again, I ask you to give examples of that. I am old. I have never been accused (before) of being apathetic and If I'm blind to something you see clearly, I again ask you to show an example of that. 

I remain "upstanding" for the reasons I explained earlier. Others are free to do as they wish. I respect their right to do it. I am not required to admire it.

In post #52 you said "they feel an effective way of making the point is to not honor the flag at sporting events." I would interpret "not honoring" as being disrespectful in that usage. Besides as I have explained multiple times, I don't see any dishonor or disrespect going on. On the contrary I think they are trying to gain their cause visibility  while not causing offense. It's just that some have promoted their action as controversial by changing the narrative. That's a purely political tactic.

And just now you say " they demonstrate not only against the evils they see but against the entire history and sacrifices the flag represents." I think that is a HUGE leap in judgement that isn't supported in fact. I believe they, or some of them, stated they are NOT attempting to dishonor the flag yet you have decided they are because you say so. In the same paragraph you say "It does not follow that I see those who do of being disrespectful." So which is it?

As far as "You suggested that because of my age I am blind and apathetic." I did not say that. You claimed some social behaviors remained because they had value. I was pointing out that some are clung to that probably shouldn't be. I did not accuse you. That's something you and everyone needs to examine for themselves.

You can stand up all you want, it doesn't automatically make you "upstanding".

(I think someone on here has several times admonished that "words have meanings". Wonder who that was.)

Well, thanks for opportunity to exchange views but I don't think there is a lot left to be said. 
I think you misunderstood my views or maybe I was not effective in explaining them. Perhaps I misunderstood your points. Whatever: I doubt we will clear this up with more conversation.
Reply
#78
Laughing Laughing  Some things never change.  Blink Rolling Eyes
Reply
#79
(10-01-2017, 08:36 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 07:13 AM)Scrapper Wrote: [Image: 468e6e970159b55282ee0ab5e8c56020.jpg]

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
Yes, Injustice is cruel and painful.
And varies in it's intensity and harm. 

Rosa Parks was protesting against a rigid practice of racial segregation that even dictated her seat on a public bus. In the segregated south even blacks of privilege had to sit "in the back of the bus". 

Mahatma Gandhi was protesting the high price of salt and the colonial oppression of a foreign power. The British allowed Indians places of some privilege but never the reigns  of power. (In the US we have had a black president) 

It's less clear what the players in the NFL are protesting, even as we acknowledge the injustice some blacks suffer. We now live in a society where many blacks have privileges scores of poor white people (and others) do not enjoy. NFL players for instance, enjoy privileges most do not. 

Let the players (and owners) continue, and let the nation engage in a conversation to finally find a solution for the behaviors of all those involved. All blacks (and nonwhites) should feel safe on our streets, free to live where they choose, and be unencumbered in the search for success. You know...like Oprah Winfrey. 




 
 Bloviate much? That sounds like a speech you wrote or a lecture.




We now live in a society where many blacks have privileges scores of poor white people (and others) do not enjoy. NFL players for instance, enjoy privileges most do not.


I think that comment is ridiculous . And what percentage of blacks ever become pro athletes? Sure as hell not enough to consider blacks privileged.

And thanks for explaining why Rosa and Gandhi protested   Rolling Eyes
Reply
#80
(10-01-2017, 02:55 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 08:36 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(10-01-2017, 07:13 AM)Scrapper Wrote: [Image: 468e6e970159b55282ee0ab5e8c56020.jpg]

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
Yes, Injustice is cruel and painful.
And varies in it's intensity and harm. 

Rosa Parks was protesting against a rigid practice of racial segregation that even dictated her seat on a public bus. In the segregated south even blacks of privilege had to sit "in the back of the bus". 

Mahatma Gandhi was protesting the high price of salt and the colonial oppression of a foreign power. The British allowed Indians places of some privilege but never the reigns  of power. (In the US we have had a black president) 

It's less clear what the players in the NFL are protesting, even as we acknowledge the injustice some blacks suffer. We now live in a society where many blacks have privileges scores of poor white people (and others) do not enjoy. NFL players for instance, enjoy privileges most do not. 

Let the players (and owners) continue, and let the nation engage in a conversation to finally find a solution for the behaviors of all those involved. All blacks (and nonwhites) should feel safe on our streets, free to live where they choose, and be unencumbered in the search for success. You know...like Oprah Winfrey. 




 
 Bloviate much? That sounds like a speech you wrote or a lecture.




We now live in a society where many blacks have privileges scores of poor white people (and others) do not enjoy. NFL players for instance, enjoy privileges most do not.


I think that comment is ridiculous . And what percentage of blacks ever become pro athletes? Sure as hell not enough to consider blacks privileged.

And thanks for explaining why Rosa and Gandhi protested   Rolling Eyes

Nope. Not raising to the bait.
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