NY Police Commissioner Said All Nine Bystanders Hit by Police Gunfire

[Leonard]

New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said all nine bystanders wounded in Friday's Empire State Building shooting had been hit with police gunfire, CNN reported Saturday morning.

According to Kelly, of the nine wounded, three suffered gunshot wounds and six were hit by fragments.

Gunfire broke out shortly after 9 a.m. on Friday when a gunman identified as 58-year old Jeffrey Johnson shot and killed former coworker Steve Ercolino near the Empire State Building.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25...30007.html

[chuck white]

Shoot everybody, we'll sort it out later.

[bbqboy]

collateral damage.

[PonderThis]

I wonder where the forum gun nuts are to tell us what makes the bullets cops use different than the ones most citizens use, and perhaps explain all the fragment damages here.

[tvguy]

I wonder where the forum gun nuts are to tell us what makes the bullets cops use different than the ones most citizens use, and perhaps explain all the fragment damages here.

I guess by "gun nut" you mean anyone who owns one or more and thinks we should have this right?

I'm not sure what you want to know. I would assume cops use hollow point bullets because they don't penetrate and go through people and walls as much as a solid lead projectile that are use for target practice.

Since they are hollow points they do break up in to fragments and although the fragments can do serious damage I don't think they are as deadly as a solid bullet.

When I first saw this story it sounded real bad for the two cops. It sounded a bunch of cops were just shooting in to a crowd willy nilly .
But if they were chasing the guy who then turned and fired on them were they supposed to just hold their fire while the guy kept shooting at them?

[Leonard]

I wonder where the forum gun nuts are to tell us what makes the bullets cops use different than the ones most citizens use, and perhaps explain all the fragment damages here.

I guess by "gun nut" you mean anyone who owns one or more and thinks we should have this right?

I'm not sure what you want to know. I would assume cops use hollow point bullets because they don't penetrate and go through people and walls as much as a solid lead projectile that are use for target practice.

Since they are hollow points they do break up in to fragments and although the fragments can do serious damage I don't think they are as deadly as a solid bullet.

When I first saw this story it sounded real bad for the two cops. It sounded a bunch of cops were just shooting in to a crowd willy nilly .
But if they were chasing the guy who then turned and fired on them were they supposed to just hold their fire while the guy kept shooting at them?

Perhaps ducking for cover and waiting for an opportunity, through surveillance cameras on the ground and aircraft in air when there would be less chance of hitting an innocent bystander. Instant gratification in crime solving is not necessary in police work especially when innocent people are hurt or killed.

This is like chasing a car on public streets at 100 miles an hour when there are radio's and helicopters available to pursue the wrong doer and prevent escape instead of endangering the public.

But then this is the new America where shoot first and then bury them is now the norm.

And dreadfully sorry Osama bin TVvat hollow nosed bullets are far more damaging to the body than solid points, especially if not hardened.

When a hollow-point hunting bullet strikes a soft target, the pressure created in the pit forces the material (usually lead) around the inside edge to expand outwards, increasing the axial diameter of the projectile as it passes through. This process is commonly referred to as mushrooming, because the resulting shape, a widened, rounded nose on top of a cylindrical base, typically resembles a mushroom.

The greater frontal surface area of the expanded bullet limits its depth of penetration into the target, and causes more extensive tissue damage along the wound path.

Many hollow-point bullets, especially those intended for use at high velocity in centerfire rifles, are jacketed, i.e. a portion of the lead-cored bullet is wrapped in a thin layer of harder metal, such as copper or mild steel. This jacket provides additional strength to the bullet, and can help prevent it from leaving deposits of lead inside the bore. In controlled expansion bullets, the jacket and other internal design characteristics help to prevent the bullet from breaking apart; a fragmented bullet will not penetrate as far............wikipedia

[orygunluvr]

Ricochets caused the projectiles to fragment.

[bbqboy]

They were probably minorities anyway. NYC, after all.
Natural selection,right?

[tvguy]

TVguy...But if they were chasing the guy who then turned and fired on them were they supposed to just hold their fire while the guy kept shooting at them?
[/quote]

Leonard...Perhaps ducking for cover and waiting for an opportunity,

Yes perhaps but it's impossible to say if they could have or not. It depends on how close the bad guy was and if there was any opportunity to look for cover.

through surveillance cameras on the ground and aircraft in air when there would be less chance of hitting an innocent bystander.

Huh? there were cops chasing an armed man who just shot someone.. :aircraft"?

Instant gratification in crime solving is not necessary in police work especially when innocent people are hurt or killed.

Yes I agree but I'm not too sure returning gun fire is "Instant gratification"

This is like chasing a car on public streets at 100 miles an hour when there are radio's and helicopters available to pursue the wrong doer and prevent escape instead of endangering the public.

It's the same thing? So you are saying the police should never have chased this armed man who just finished killing someone? Hindsight is 20 20 for you anti cop anti America armchair quarter backs.

But then this is the new America where shoot first and then bury them is now the norm.

Thats just stupid and I wondered how far in to your post I would get before you started making these idiotic new America comments.

And dreadfully sorry Osama bin TVvat hollow nosed bullets are far more damaging to the body than solid points, especially if not hardened.

Of course they are you fool. I never said they weren't. But hollow points are much safer as far as what happens to a projectile AFTER it hits something.

You should stick with posting air head absurd tin foil hat wearing lunatic laced garbage. It's what you are good at.
leave the ballistics to people who know what they are talking about and who don't need to Google.

[PonderThis]

And you wonder why you're considered one of the forum "gun nuts"???

[TennisMom]

The police should not have been shooting at someone with crowds around. From what I understand, the gunman shot his victim and no one else. It seems to me the police should have erred on the side of caution. I can't condemn them but wonder if some restraint should have been exercised.

[tvguy]

And you wonder why you're considered one of the forum "gun nuts"???

No Assholes like you consider anyone with a gun a nut. And anyone anywhere who doesn't think exactly like you.

Perhaps you could actually point out what I said exactly that makes YOU think I'm a gun nut and stop acting like you speak for others.

[tvguy]

'TennisMom' pid='226920' dateline='1346000884']
The police should not have been shooting at someone with crowds around.
From what I understand, the gunman shot his victim and no one else. It seems to me the police should have erred on the side of caution. I can't condemn them but wonder if some restraint should have been exercised.

So you are taking the position that these two cops should have just stood there and allowed the shooter to kill both of them?
Is that what you mean by showing restraint?

[Clone]

NYPD has something like 35,000 cops.
Considering the police departments in outlying areas pay more with better benefits, the NYPD has a big turnover.
Not to mention, many of them, as soon as their 20 years are up, retire.

This means many of the uniformed cops out on the streets are kids.
It's almost painful looking at them at times...the hat, the uniform, the gun, the radio, the baton, etc. on a fresh-faced still wet behind the ears kid.

You get what you pay for in law enforcement as well as just about anything else.

In NYC it means the inexperienced, young kids are the ones between you and the bad guys on the street.

The older, more experienced ones are working cases.

I'm certainly not making excuses, I'm explaining how it can happen.

[tvguy]

NYPD has something like 35,000 cops.
Considering the police departments in outlying areas pay more with better benefits, the NYPD has a big turnover.
Not to mention, many of them, as soon as their 20 years are up, retire.

This means many of the uniformed cops out on the streets are kids.
It's almost painful looking at them at times...the hat, the uniform, the gun, the radio, the baton, etc. on a fresh-faced still wet behind the ears kid.

You get what you pay for in law enforcement as well as just about anything else.

In NYC it means the inexperienced, young kids are the ones between you and the bad guys on the street.

The older, more experienced ones are working cases.

I'm certainly not making excuses, I'm explaining how it can happen.

Nice story from a a New Yorker who one would think might have some insight.
The problem with Clones story is that the two cops who shot this murderer were both VETERAN patrolman 40 and 39 years old with 15 years experience.

And if these under paid baby faced cops are so bad and you get what you pay for then why is New York called America's safest big city by their police commissioner and why is this stament backed up by FBI crime stats?



[b]

. The oft-invoked description that NYC is America's safest big city is based on FBI crime statistics for the nation's 25 most populous cities. The data comprise a total of seven major crimes, including murder, rape and robbery; New York has the lowest rate per 100,000 residents.[/b]

[illcommandante]

I watched three of Miami's finest, shoot each other on TV, trying to get a perp out of a little elevator shack. But, apparently, he had already gotten out.

[TennisMom]

'TennisMom' pid='226920' dateline='1346000884']
The police should not have been shooting at someone with crowds around.
From what I understand, the gunman shot his victim and no one else. It seems to me the police should have erred on the side of caution. I can't condemn them but wonder if some restraint should have been exercised.

So you are taking the position that these two cops should have just stood there and allowed the shooter to kill both of them?
Is that what you mean by showing restraint?

The comments section in all the NY papers are full of censure for the NYPD. The cops are trained to deal with these situations. The shooter used six of his shots and only had two left. So, the cops pumped him full of bullets and got nine bystanders as well? This is going to cost the city millions in lawsuits. People are angry. There had to be a better way to deal with this than to shoot nine people.