Dam Removal

[PonderThis]

I noticed on the Oregon chart that wind provides more of our power in Oregon than nuclear.

[oregon 67]

169 megawatts is little bitty power. (California) generates about 2 megawatt in solar.

I'd like to know the source of your figures. I'm seeing that California has almost 2000 megawatts of solar capacity (photovoltic and concentrating together) and that something like 20% of California's energy supply is now coming from renewable sources, a figure mandated to be 33% by 2020. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_California

Also, that on one day alone, California solar produced 8500 megawatts of actual power (not just capacity). http://www.pgecurrents.com/2012/09/04/ca...roduction/

Something does not seem right with the figures I am seeing here. Anybody?

( California) ? Previous quotes say the "state" referring to Oregon. Now we see who changes stuff to stir up shit .

[oregon 67]

http://www.eia.gov/beta/state/?sid=or#tabs-4

more info.

[MarkM]

Wind is a form of solar energy, since it takes the heating of the air to produce the wind.
Come to think of it, so is hydroelectric.

All energy is solar if you track it back far enough.

[PonderThis]

169 megawatts is little bitty power. (California) generates about 2 megawatt in solar.

I'd like to know the source of your figures. I'm seeing that California has almost 2000 megawatts of solar capacity (photovoltic and concentrating together) and that something like 20% of California's energy supply is now coming from renewable sources, a figure mandated to be 33% by 2020. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_California

Also, that on one day alone, California solar produced 8500 megawatts of actual power (not just capacity). http://www.pgecurrents.com/2012/09/04/ca...roduction/

Something does not seem right with the figures I am seeing here. Anybody?

( California) ? Previous quotes say the "state" referring to Oregon. Now we see who changes stuff to stir up shit .

Sorry, I misunderstood your original post then. Accusing me of deliberately changing things to "stir up shit" is a bit harsh, don't you think?

(Afterall, this is a thread about California dams being removed, and in your response you said "the state". I merely changed it to (California) for what seemed to me like clarification as to what "the state" was you were talking about.)

[chuck white]

Wind is a form of solar energy, since it takes the heating of the air to produce the wind.
Come to think of it, so is hydroelectric.

All energy is solar if you track it back far enough.

All worship the Sun of God.

[oregon 67]

169 megawatts is little bitty power. (California) generates about 2 megawatt in solar.

I'd like to know the source of your figures. I'm seeing that California has almost 2000 megawatts of solar capacity (photovoltic and concentrating together) and that something like 20% of California's energy supply is now coming from renewable sources, a figure mandated to be 33% by 2020. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_California

Also, that on one day alone, California solar produced 8500 megawatts of actual power (not just capacity). http://www.pgecurrents.com/2012/09/04/ca...roduction/

Something does not seem right with the figures I am seeing here. Anybody?

( California) ? Previous quotes say the "state" referring to Oregon. Now we see who changes stuff to stir up shit .

Sorry, I misunderstood your original post then. Accusing me of deliberately changing things to "stir up shit" is a bit harsh, don't you think?

Well, Most of us live in Or. That is what I was referring to, I can see how one might have thought we were talking about Ca . .As those dams provide power to N.Ca. and S. Or.

[MarkM]

This chart gives you a representative idea of where Oregon's power comes from. Solar is not so much. It's not like Oregon hasn't tried. It just hasn't built the large projects California has.

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/Pages/Orego...r_Mix.aspx

But don't despair. Oregon already gets over 40% of its energy from renewable sources thanks mainly to hydro. Roll on, Columbia.

Holy shit. Pacific Power only gets 8.5% of their power from hydroelectric, and 66.8% of their power comes from coal. Wind is 5.8%. I don't even see solar on here.

Do you see now what it is unreasonable to expect renewables to save our butts in the fight against climate change? Wind would have to increase by eleven times just to replace the power produced by coal. Solar is not even a rounding error.

[MarkM]

I noticed on the Oregon chart that wind provides more of our power in Oregon than nuclear.

I might say it this way: Considering Oregon has zero nuclear plants and we heavily subsidize wind, it's surprising that we get almost as much power from nukes as we do from wind.

Or, there is a great deal of untapped nuclear potential in Oregon.

[PonderThis]

I'm still not sure what percentage of California's power is produced by solar, but it sounds like a lot more than Oregon is doing. If they can do it I don't see why we can't either (or, buy it from them). I wouldn't care personally if we did increase wind by 11 times. Or solar. It looks to me like there's a lot of barren land going unused in this country that could just as well be gathering solar energy. The only thing I can see holding any of these technologies up is cost. It's still cheaper to pollute than to do things right. Well, duh.

[MarkM]

I'm still not sure what percentage of California's power is produced by solar, but it sounds like a lot more than Oregon is doing. If they can do it I don't see why we can't either (or, buy it from them). I wouldn't care personally if we did increase wind by 11 times. Or solar. It looks to me like there's a lot of barren land going unused in this country that could just as well be gathering solar energy. The only thing I can see holding any of these technologies up is cost. It's still cheaper to pollute than to do things right. Well, duh.

[MarkM]

Note that is production, not consumption. Surprising how much oil California still produces, lots of it comes from offshore too.

[PonderThis]

So California is counting that 15.6% of hydropower as part of their 20% of renewable, mandated to be 33% by 2020? Well, that does sound like cheating, doesn't it.

EDIT: But that's total energy, including oil. Each one of these charts we've used tonight isn't really directly comparable, because they're always something else. (Electricity by power company, Electricity consumed in a state, electricity produced in a state, total energy produced in a state).

[MarkM]

[PonderThis]

Well, that does put it in perspective then, doesn't it. I think it's good to look at this from a national perspective rather than a state by state comparison anyway (indeed, a worldwide perspective might be even better). OK, I'm trying to put my psychic and God like powers to work here, and I'm coming up with an idea.

It doesn't look to me like the petroleum, the nuclear or the coal components of this chart are doing us (as humans) a bit of good (environmentally speaking), so I propose that we put ridiculous taxes on these items, so ridiculous that we could run our entire government on them. Then, abolish income taxes for the masses, and let it all work out and see what happens.

I bet government would be scared shitless at such a proclamation. Because, then people probably would really work on finding economical alternatives to coal, nuclear, and petroleum (because then it would be real tax savings at heart and not something just hypothetical), and if they succeeded, the government would go broke and they'd have to find some other segment of society to leach off of instead then (at which point I'll propose we tax the snot out of corporations or just nationalize them outright and run the government off that instead, my original target anyway).

As Supreme Commander and God himself, I so decree it.

(Playing God is always so much fun!)

[MarkM]

Well you'd have to be God to make all that happen. Republicans won't even vote for immigration reform which they claim to want.

[PonderThis]

Republicans are a non issue, and as they currently exist are going the way of the Dodo Bird.

[tvguy]

Well, that does put it in perspective then, doesn't it. I think it's good to look at this from a national perspective rather than a state by state comparison anyway (indeed, a worldwide perspective might be even better). OK, I'm trying to put my psychic and God like powers to work here, and I'm coming up with an idea.

It doesn't look to me like the petroleum, the nuclear or the coal components of this chart are doing us (as humans) a bit of good (environmentally speaking), so I propose that we put ridiculous taxes on these items, so ridiculous that we could run our entire government on them. Then, abolish income taxes for the masses, and let it all work out and see what happens.

I bet government would be scared shitless at such a proclamation. Because, then people probably would really work on finding economical alternatives to coal, nuclear, and petroleum (because then it would be real tax savings at heart and not something just hypothetical), and if they succeeded, the government would go broke and they'd have to find some other segment of society to leach off of instead then (at which point I'll propose we tax the snot out of corporations or just nationalize them outright and run the government off that instead, my original target anyway).

As Supreme Commander and God himself, I so decree it.

(Playing God is always so much fun!)

I amazed that you seem to think any cost whatsoever to Americans is worth it with your zeal stop relying on fossil fuels.
Especially when our economy is hurting.
I'm also amazed that you can't see the fact that our government is already doing a lot with CASH incentives and tax breaks to encourage people to produce alternate energy.
Hell even the power company is required by law to buy and excess electricity that a person might produce.

What people are telling you, or TRYING to tell you is that solar and wind power alone is NEVER going to cut it.

[illcommandante]

The solution is in space, and the technology exists. The technology that would end big oil's grip on us, and turn their gold to toxic waste. So, don't look for a quick solution. This is a thing doable now, and at a reasonable cost. And, renewable as it gets. A project we should tackle alone. But we'll do it like the space station. That'll fuck it up good, from the start.

[gapper]

The dams will come out. Deal with it. One way might be to try some (ggggaaassssspppppppppp..........) conservation.
Turn off some lights, (I'm talking big time lights, look at any city after dark and tell me we aren't wasting power). Heck, some of you waste enough on your computers with your endless forum pissing matches to light a lamp or two.