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03-25-2013, 10:29 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2013, 10:31 AM by PonderThis. Edited 1 time in total.)
(03-25-2013, 09:59 AM)Wonky Wrote: (03-25-2013, 09:48 AM)PonderThis Wrote: How many muggings and liquor store robberies does it take to equal one Bernie Madoff in overall harm to society done?
Who knows?
How many?
Estimates of his fraud vary: "The size of the fraud was often stated as $65 billion early in the investigation,[82] but former SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt estimated the actual net fraud to be between $10 and $17 billion.[84] Erin Arvedlund, who publicly questioned Madoff's reported investment performance in 2001, stated that the actual amount of the fraud might never be known, but was likely between $12 and $20 billion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Mad..._investors
If you take the (conservative) $12 billion figure, and value a mugging at, let's say, $10,000, you come up with Bernie Madoff doing the same amount of human harm as 1,200,000 muggings.
All without a gun too.
All this really proves is, white people have more opportunity for so called "white collar" crimes, and poor minorities don't have access to those kinds of opportunities. Meanwhile, their needs are greater, since society doesn't treat them as well. That doesn't make the minorities any more criminal prone, it's simply a matter of circumstances. The situations could easily have been reversed by the luck of the genetic draw for any of us.
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Who gets mugged for ten grand?
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(03-25-2013, 10:29 AM)PonderThis Wrote: (03-25-2013, 09:59 AM)Wonky Wrote: (03-25-2013, 09:48 AM)PonderThis Wrote: How many muggings and liquor store robberies does it take to equal one Bernie Madoff in overall harm to society done?
Who knows?
How many?
Estimates of his fraud vary: "The size of the fraud was often stated as $65 billion early in the investigation,[82] but former SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt estimated the actual net fraud to be between $10 and $17 billion.[84] Erin Arvedlund, who publicly questioned Madoff's reported investment performance in 2001, stated that the actual amount of the fraud might never be known, but was likely between $12 and $20 billion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Mad..._investors
If you take the (conservative) $12 billion figure, and value a mugging at, let's say, $10,000, you come up with Bernie Madoff doing the same amount of human harm as 1,200,000 muggings.
All without a gun too.
All this really proves is, white people have more opportunity for so called "white collar" crimes, and poor minorities don't have access to those kinds of opportunities. Meanwhile, their needs are greater, since society doesn't treat them as well. That doesn't make the minorities any more criminal prone, it's simply a matter of circumstances. The situations could easily have been reversed by the luck of the genetic draw for any of us.
Off topic.
Madoff did not live in a neighborhood with a "gun culture". This is not about money, it's about the guns on the street responsible for untold numbers of deaths. And often, for almost trivial slights.
Comparing fraud to gun violence?
Don't.
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03-25-2013, 10:36 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2013, 10:39 AM by PonderThis. Edited 2 times in total.)
(03-25-2013, 10:34 AM)Valuesize Wrote: Who gets mugged for ten grand?
I'm counting a lot of psychological suffering, hospital bills and loss of income in there. You can try inserting your own figures if you'd like.
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(03-25-2013, 10:35 AM)Wonky Wrote: Comparing fraud to gun violence?
Don't.
I don't see any reason why not. Besides, I'm getting tired of this subtle racism some posters keep trying to input on this forum, and Larry is one of the offenders.
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(03-25-2013, 10:38 AM)PonderThis Wrote: (03-25-2013, 10:35 AM)Wonky Wrote: Comparing fraud to gun violence?
Don't.
I don't see any reason why not. Besides, I'm getting tired of this subtle racism some posters keep trying to input on this forum, and Larry is one of the offenders.
Larry? Get over it. Don't read his posts for cryin' our loud. You are able to make choices.
And, "you don't see any reason why not"? Why not what? Comparing fraud to gun violence?
I hope your are kidding.
When you are ducking for cover and the bullets are flying at you, you will have NO DOUBT about the difference. Fraud may kill your bank account. Bullets cause pain, suffering, bleeding, and sudden and unexpected death at a place you most likely won't find a good place to die.
Come on Ponder, be serious.
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03-25-2013, 11:05 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2013, 11:08 AM by PonderThis. Edited 4 times in total.)
It's a direct counter-argument to Larry's proposition that guns are a minority and big city problem alone, adding to this forum implication among some that minorities are somehow more criminal beings than us white guys. Totally applicable in my own mind if in no one else's.
Tell the widows and orphans as they lose everything they had and live the rest of their lives out in abject poverty they didn't suffer a very physical loss.
(p.s. I've been shot, too - have you?)
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(03-25-2013, 10:38 AM)PonderThis Wrote: (03-25-2013, 10:35 AM)Wonky Wrote: Comparing fraud to gun violence?
Don't.
I don't see any reason why not. Besides, I'm getting tired of this subtle racism some posters keep trying to input on this forum, and Larry is one of the offenders.
YOU are getting tired?? how about you stop blaming everything on racism or inventing it when it's not the issue. Or throwing out strawman arguments like Maddoff to change the subject.
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(03-25-2013, 11:05 AM)PonderThis Wrote: It's a direct counter-argument to Larry's proposition that guns are a minority and big city problem alone, adding to this forum implication among some that minorities are somehow more criminal beings than us white guys. Totally applicable in my own mind if in no one else's.
Tell the widows and orphans as they lose everything they had and live the rest of their lives out in abject poverty they didn't suffer a very physical loss.
Okay.
I'm done here.
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(03-25-2013, 11:07 AM)tvguy Wrote: (03-25-2013, 10:38 AM)PonderThis Wrote: (03-25-2013, 10:35 AM)Wonky Wrote: Comparing fraud to gun violence?
Don't.
I don't see any reason why not. Besides, I'm getting tired of this subtle racism some posters keep trying to input on this forum, and Larry is one of the offenders.
YOU are getting tired?? how about you stop blaming everything on racism or inventing it when it's not the issue. Or throwing out strawman arguments like Maddoff to change the subject.
You're one of the prime ones here implying minorities are more criminal beings than whites, so your guns are OK even if theirs aren't. Deal with it.
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(03-25-2013, 11:11 AM)PonderThis Wrote: (03-25-2013, 11:07 AM)tvguy Wrote: (03-25-2013, 10:38 AM)PonderThis Wrote: (03-25-2013, 10:35 AM)Wonky Wrote: Comparing fraud to gun violence?
Don't.
I don't see any reason why not. Besides, I'm getting tired of this subtle racism some posters keep trying to input on this forum, and Larry is one of the offenders.
YOU are getting tired?? how about you stop blaming everything on racism or inventing it when it's not the issue. Or throwing out strawman arguments like Maddoff to change the subject.
You're one of the prime ones here implying minorities are more criminal beings than whites, so your guns are OK even if theirs aren't. Deal with it.
Why don't you start a thread about these beliefs of yours and stop trying to steer other threads to where YOU want to go.
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Why don't you control your own life and quit trying to control what others do?
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(03-25-2013, 11:17 AM)PonderThis Wrote: Why don't you control your own life and quit trying to control what others do?
OK then I suggest you take your white men commit crime like fraud BS and start a thread.
This will make minorities look better .. right?
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I suggest you make suggestions for yourself, and when I want your suggestions I will ask for them, OK???
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I mentioned background checks earlier on this topic and the response I got from TVguy and Larry was that we already have them. Duh! What I meant was universal background checks. I envision a program that mandates that every purchaser must provide to any seller a certification of some kind that proves they can legally buy a gun.
The point that I was making with the chart and by posting these videos is that 90% of Americans including soldiers, cops, school administrators, and just about every other sane person wants this. Yet we have people here on this forum that are in the 10% that apparently don't. So, can a congress that is bought by the NRA along with a few stubborn gun nuts thwart the will of the American people. I think they can.
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03-27-2013, 08:22 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2013, 08:26 AM by Scar. Edited 1 time in total.)
(03-27-2013, 08:13 AM)cletus1 Wrote: I mentioned background checks earlier on this topic and the response I got from TVguy and Larry was that we already have them. Duh! What I meant was universal background checks. I envision a program that mandates that every purchaser must provide to any seller a certification of some kind that proves they can legally buy a gun.
The point that I was making with the chart and by posting these videos is that 90% of Americans including soldiers, cops, school administrators, and just about every other sane person wants this. Yet we have people here on this forum that are in the 10% that apparently don't. So, can a congress that is bought by the NRA along with a few stubborn gun nuts thwart the will of the American people. I think they can.
How many crimes are committed with legally purchased firearms? This background is presented as something that will prevent a murderer from acting. It won't and it won't prevent criminals from getting guns either.
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(03-27-2013, 08:22 AM)Scar Wrote: This background is presented as something that will prevent a murderer from acting. It won't and it won't prevent criminals from getting guns either.
There are stats that prove you wrong, should you choose to educate yourself.
But, you probably won't.
It's so much easier to parrot the nonsense of ignorance.
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(03-27-2013, 08:22 AM)Scar Wrote: How many crimes are committed with legally purchased firearms?
All of them that used guns in their crimes. What manufacturer sells guns illegally?
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(03-27-2013, 08:30 AM)gapper Wrote: (03-27-2013, 08:22 AM)Scar Wrote: This background is presented as something that will prevent a murderer from acting. It won't and it won't prevent criminals from getting guns either.
There are stats that prove you wrong, should you choose to educate yourself.
But, you probably won't.
It's so much easier to parrot the nonsense of ignorance.
Nice subtle troll there rowen.
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(03-27-2013, 09:00 AM)Scar Wrote: (03-27-2013, 08:30 AM)gapper Wrote: (03-27-2013, 08:22 AM)Scar Wrote: This background is presented as something that will prevent a murderer from acting. It won't and it won't prevent criminals from getting guns either.
There are stats that prove you wrong, should you choose to educate yourself.
But, you probably won't.
It's so much easier to parrot the nonsense of ignorance.
Nice subtle troll there rowen.
???
Dude, you seem really confused.
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