Galice Mining District in the news
#1
So, what do people think of all of this?

Quote:Southern Oregon miners file injunction to stop legislation on motorized mining moratorium

April 26, 2013 at 7:11 PM

SALEM -- A southern Oregon mining group is seeking an injunction in federal court to stop bills under consideration in the Legislature that would place a moratorium on motorized mining.

Galice Mining District and four representatives filed the request in U.S. District Court in Eugene on Tuesday. It names Gov. John Kitzhaber; Senate President Peter Courtney, D-Salem; Sen. Jackie Dingfelder, D-Portland; and Sen. Alan Bates, D-Medford.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index...cart_river
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#2
All part of agenda 21.
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#3
(04-27-2013, 10:49 AM)gapper Wrote: So, what do people think of all of this?

Quote:Southern Oregon miners file injunction to stop legislation on motorized mining moratorium

April 26, 2013 at 7:11 PM

SALEM -- A southern Oregon mining group is seeking an injunction in federal court to stop bills under consideration in the Legislature that would place a moratorium on motorized mining.

Galice Mining District and four representatives filed the request in U.S. District Court in Eugene on Tuesday. It names Gov. John Kitzhaber; Senate President Peter Courtney, D-Salem; Sen. Jackie Dingfelder, D-Portland; and Sen. Alan Bates, D-Medford.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index...cart_river
I'm a rock hound, i.e. gem collector, for clarification.

At least they are taking some actions. Groups like KSWild use our tax dollars against us by filing pro bono actions in the same court to shut down logging.

No one wants to take the Feds on about O&C lands in court so you got to give them credit for trying.
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#4
It seems to me they are attempting something that can't be done, while costing tax payers money to deal with it.
Hard for me to give them credit for that. Our Legislators are busy up there and are dealing with a lot of issues on our dime. You know, greatly important stuff like making sure kids have an opportunity to say the Pledge of Allegiance at school everyday!! (as if they don't already......)

From the article:
Quote: Jeff Manning, a spokesman for the Oregon Department of Justice, questioned the case's legal merits.

"We can safely say we are unaware of any mechanism that would allow a party to challenge a not-yet law," Manning said. "It wouldn't be ripe for adjudication."

Legislative immunity also provides that lawmakers "can't be sued for what they do in their capacity as a legislator," Manning said.

It sounds to me as if they've gotten some bogus legal advice to even be pursuing this.
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#5
(04-27-2013, 01:09 PM)gapper Wrote: It seems to me they are attempting something that can't be done, while costing tax payers money to deal with it.
Hard for me to give them credit for that. Our Legislators are busy up there and are dealing with a lot of issues on our dime. You know, greatly important stuff like making sure kids have an opportunity to say the Pledge of Allegiance at school everyday!! (as if they don't already......)

From the article:
Quote: Jeff Manning, a spokesman for the Oregon Department of Justice, questioned the case's legal merits.

"We can safely say we are unaware of any mechanism that would allow a party to challenge a not-yet law," Manning said. "It wouldn't be ripe for adjudication."

Legislative immunity also provides that lawmakers "can't be sued for what they do in their capacity as a legislator," Manning said.

It sounds to me as if they've gotten some bogus legal advice to even be pursuing this.

Might be a futile attempt but remember that "mining districts" are a form of government within a government. They are different than other districts and have certain legal authority.

They have their own legal counsel and paid the filing fees. Several mining districts have legal funds for these action plus donations from their members.

I think it's about time someone start using the courts against folks who restrict people's rights.

Did you know that the RiverKeepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills.

Economically it doesn't make sense because I saw what it did in California.

Besides the dredgers by law can't be in the waterways 9 mos of the year because of fishing and spawning regulations.

It comes down to an enforcement issue, a few bad apples ruining for the lot, and not enough enforcement officers to check on those on the water for the 3 months.
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#6
(04-28-2013, 10:25 AM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-27-2013, 01:09 PM)gapper Wrote: It seems to me they are attempting something that can't be done, while costing tax payers money to deal with it.
Hard for me to give them credit for that. Our Legislators are busy up there and are dealing with a lot of issues on our dime. You know, greatly important stuff like making sure kids have an opportunity to say the Pledge of Allegiance at school everyday!! (as if they don't already......)

From the article:
Quote: Jeff Manning, a spokesman for the Oregon Department of Justice, questioned the case's legal merits.

"We can safely say we are unaware of any mechanism that would allow a party to challenge a not-yet law," Manning said. "It wouldn't be ripe for adjudication."

Legislative immunity also provides that lawmakers "can't be sued for what they do in their capacity as a legislator," Manning said.

It sounds to me as if they've gotten some bogus legal advice to even be pursuing this.

Might be a futile attempt but remember that "mining districts" are a form of government within a government. They are different than other districts and have certain legal authority.

They have their own legal counsel and paid the filing fees. Yes, as I said, it seems like they got some bogus advice. I remember an overzealous retired attorney coming back to practice and convincing people to sue to stop the removal of Gold Ray Dam. I gotta ask; how's that working for them??

Did you know that the RiverKeepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills. I don't know who (what) RiverKeepers is and know little to nothing about KSWild. That said, how do you find out who backs these bills financiall and what does "money behind these bills" look like? Bates is the local Senator. Are you saying these groups are paying him to sponsor these bills?

Economically it doesn't make sense because I saw what it did in California. Do tell. What did you see that it did in California?

Besides the dredgers by law can't be in the waterways 9 mos of the year because of fishing and spawning regulations.

It comes down to an enforcement issue, a few bad apples ruining for the lot, and not enough enforcement officers to check on those on the water for the 3 months.

I agree on the enforcement thing. They need to charge these dredgers enough in licensing fees to support enforcement officers to monitor them.
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#7
(04-28-2013, 10:43 AM)gapper Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 10:25 AM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-27-2013, 01:09 PM)gapper Wrote: It seems to me they are attempting something that can't be done, while costing tax payers money to deal with it.
Hard for me to give them credit for that. Our Legislators are busy up there and are dealing with a lot of issues on our dime. You know, greatly important stuff like making sure kids have an opportunity to say the Pledge of Allegiance at school everyday!! (as if they don't already......)

From the article:
Quote: Jeff Manning, a spokesman for the Oregon Department of Justice, questioned the case's legal merits.

"We can safely say we are unaware of any mechanism that would allow a party to challenge a not-yet law," Manning said. "It wouldn't be ripe for adjudication."

Legislative immunity also provides that lawmakers "can't be sued for what they do in their capacity as a legislator," Manning said.

It sounds to me as if they've gotten some bogus legal advice to even be pursuing this.

Might be a futile attempt but remember that "mining districts" are a form of government within a government. They are different than other districts and have certain legal authority.

They have their own legal counsel and paid the filing fees. Yes, as I said, it seems like they got some bogus advice. I remember an overzealous retired attorney coming back to practice and convincing people to sue to stop the removal of Gold Ray Dam. I gotta ask; how's that working for them??

Did you know that the RiverKeepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills. I don't know who (what) RiverKeepers is and know little to nothing about KSWild. That said, how do you find out who backs these bills financiall and what does "money behind these bills" look like? Bates is the local Senator. Are you saying these groups are paying him to sponsor these bills?

Economically it doesn't make sense because I saw what it did in California. Do tell. What did you see that it did in California?

Besides the dredgers by law can't be in the waterways 9 mos of the year because of fishing and spawning regulations.

It comes down to an enforcement issue, a few bad apples ruining for the lot, and not enough enforcement officers to check on those on the water for the 3 months.

I agree on the enforcement thing. They need to charge these dredgers enough in licensing fees to support enforcement officers to monitor them.

First, their legal counsel is a former candidate for Oregon State Attorney general and an accomplished Portland legal counsel. He has represented many miners and mining companies.

I found out about the backers behind the bill by checking their websites. They proudly post their accomplishment on it. Both groups are tied together and promoted the lawsuits against the forest sales too!

I have friends along the Klamath River and in Happy Camp. Dredgers would come from in and out of State, some from overseas. The loss of money they spent in the camp grounds, grocery stores, bars, gas stations, motels, and restraurants was an economic disaster. The tourism impact was hard because a lot of people flew in, rented vehicles, and equipment.

The dredging industry lost money on equipment and parts sales not to say the State in licensing fees.

Imagine if they shut down rafting, raft tours, and boat tours on the Rogue because it impacted the waterway. Say they stated the boat motors and that the boat material introduced too much pollutants in the water and wanted a five year mortorium to study the issue.

They had nothing scientific to really back it up just some wild hunch, then what?

They say that dredging harms the redd beds and spawning season but the dredgers by law aren't on the waterways during that the period.

They say that dredging stirs up the silk and muddies the water harming the fish but when we get floods or high fast waters we get the same effect.

Maybe the law makers are insulated from lawsuits but its time to get some attention on the issue. Before we know it the forest and waterways will slowly be locked up that we, the private citizen, could only do is admire all from the perimeter.

Interesting arguments, eh?

I know at one time there was a push to ban dirt bikes from the forest trails, then ATVs, then side by sides, now its trail and pack horses.
Pretty soon it'll be two legged traffic!

I used to be able to go out and set up a camp just to get outdoors. Now I have to read all the regulations, get permits, and make sure that I don't violate any administrative rules. I could be ticketed for setting up a camp tent on top of an endanger plant or in a "study area!"
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#8
(04-28-2013, 12:33 PM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 10:43 AM)gapper Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 10:25 AM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-27-2013, 01:09 PM)gapper Wrote: It seems to me they are attempting something that can't be done, while costing tax payers money to deal with it.
Hard for me to give them credit for that. Our Legislators are busy up there and are dealing with a lot of issues on our dime. You know, greatly important stuff like making sure kids have an opportunity to say the Pledge of Allegiance at school everyday!! (as if they don't already......)

From the article:
Quote: Jeff Manning, a spokesman for the Oregon Department of Justice, questioned the case's legal merits.

"We can safely say we are unaware of any mechanism that would allow a party to challenge a not-yet law," Manning said. "It wouldn't be ripe for adjudication."

Legislative immunity also provides that lawmakers "can't be sued for what they do in their capacity as a legislator," Manning said.

It sounds to me as if they've gotten some bogus legal advice to even be pursuing this.

Might be a futile attempt but remember that "mining districts" are a form of government within a government. They are different than other districts and have certain legal authority.

They have their own legal counsel and paid the filing fees. Yes, as I said, it seems like they got some bogus advice. I remember an overzealous retired attorney coming back to practice and convincing people to sue to stop the removal of Gold Ray Dam. I gotta ask; how's that working for them??

Did you know that the RiverKeepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills. I don't know who (what) RiverKeepers is and know little to nothing about KSWild. That said, how do you find out who backs these bills financiall and what does "money behind these bills" look like? Bates is the local Senator. Are you saying these groups are paying him to sponsor these bills?

Economically it doesn't make sense because I saw what it did in California. Do tell. What did you see that it did in California?

Besides the dredgers by law can't be in the waterways 9 mos of the year because of fishing and spawning regulations.

It comes down to an enforcement issue, a few bad apples ruining for the lot, and not enough enforcement officers to check on those on the water for the 3 months.

I agree on the enforcement thing. They need to charge these dredgers enough in licensing fees to support enforcement officers to monitor them.

First, their legal counsel is a former candidate for Oregon State Attorney general and an accomplished Portland legal counsel. He has represented many miners and mining companies.
Are you talking about James Buchal , the guy that almost bankrupt the GPID in his futile attempts to stop the removal of their dam? I saw he ran for Attorney General and got his butt kicked but good. If running for office gives one credibility, maybe I need to look at Dale Mathews, Seligman, quoWalters and other repeat losers differently?? The guy makes his living taking on frivolous lawsuits with other people's money.
Quote:I have friends along the Klamath River and in Happy Camp. Dredgers would come from in and out of State, some from overseas. The loss of money they spent in the camp grounds, grocery stores, bars, gas stations, motels, and restraurants was an economic disaster. The tourism impact was hard because a lot of people flew in, rented vehicles, and equipment.
I can imagine that would have some impact. I would be curious though to see hard numbers. "Economic disaster"? That seems possibly a bit hyperbolic. I would also be interested to know how many people really flew in and rented cars and mining equipment. Where does a person rent dredges and platforms?
Quote:The dredging industry lost money on equipment and parts sales not to say the State in licensing fees.
I can see an impact there., for sure
Quote:Imagine if they shift down rafting, raft tour, and boat tours on the Rogue because it impacted the waterway. Say they stated the boat motors and that the boat material introduced too much pollutants in the water and wanted a five year mortorium to study the issue.
They had nothing scientific to really back it up just some wild hunch, then what?
Time out! Are you suggesting that the economics of dredge mining compares to the tourism industry on the Rogue? There are over 70,000 people that support the tour boat industry alone. That is not counting the thousands that come to raft the river. Sorry, but to make that comparison just doesn't pan out.

Quote:They say that dredging harms the redd beds and spawning season but the dredgers by law aren't on the waterways during that the period.

They say that dredging stirs up the silk and muddies the water harming the fish but when we get floods or high fast waters we get the same effect.
Yeah , they are regulated by seasonal restrictions. However, we don't get floods and high fast water in summer, when the water is low and warmer and full of aquatic life, now do we?
Quote:Interesting arguments, eh?

I'll give you "interesting", albeit more than a little superficial.

You claim there was no evidence to substantiate shutting them down in Cali. At the same time you throw out a lot of opinion about the economy they created, with no evidence to support that. You're gonna need to do a better job of selling than you have so far.

And, as far as Buchal being a creditable Attorney, many, many would disagree with that. I am still waiting to hear of even one, out of the many little old ladies that he claimed would starve to death without Savage Rapids Dam in place. Laughing
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#9
(04-28-2013, 12:33 PM)Prospector Wrote: Did you know that the River
Keepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills.

OK, I visited these guys' websites. Yes, they are definitely active environmental advocates. So, your premise is that because the were "BIG backers" ( void any "numbers and facts" whatsoever )of Senator Bate's campaign, that they are "the money behind these bills?". IF that is true, I guess it's kind of like the Galice Mining Dist. being the money behind Buchal and his attempted, precedence setting injunction.
The difference is, though, it is general taxpayer money that will have to fund the fight against Buchal's Mouse that Roared efforts..
Kind of like how he sucked the budget of GPID down to almost nothing. But hey, even a disingenuous blood sucking attorney's got to eat!
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#10
Those 'few bad apples' are used as an excuse for many

If there is not enough law enforcement to patrol these 'bad apples' and the other miners will do nothing to stop them?

Shut the whole thing down until it can be properly policed.

I consider the creeks, the rivers and the salmon much more important than miners who feel they have a constitutional right to wreak havoc on habitats.
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#11
(04-28-2013, 01:37 PM)gapper Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 12:33 PM)Prospector Wrote: Did you know that the River
Keepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills.

OK, I visited these guys' websites. Yes, they are definitely active environmental advocates. So, your premise is that because the were "BIG backers" ( void any "numbers and facts" whatsoever )of Senator Bate's campaign, that they are "the money behind these bills?". IF that is true, I guess it's kind of like the Galice Mining Dist. being the money behind Buchal and his attempted, precedence setting injunction.
The difference is, though, it is general taxpayer money that will have to fund the fight against Buchal's Mouse that Roared efforts..
Kind of like how he sucked the budget of GPID down to almost nothing. But hey, even a disingenuous blood sucking attorney's got to eat!

Hey, I don't defend this attorney just stated that who was working for the miners.

Whether the taxpayer is paying a dime for this effort, I haven't seen it since the parties pay filing fees.

If you drive down along the Klamath, Scott, and Salmon rivers you'll see the number of businesses closed. A few were fun spots.

My COMPARISION with rafting and boat tours was the idea of just pulling an excuse to shut down something without good research. It would hurt the tourism.

Yes, there were "rental businesses" for mining equipment in Medford and Yreka but closed. I believe there is a club called the New 49ers in Happy Camp were you can rent or rent from members.

Yes, I met several people on the Klamath from Europe and Australia who were dredging for the summer in the 2002-2005.

Remember Galice mining district isn't pushing a bill through the State, they are trying to stop it.

Ask yourself this question.

Why would an ASHLAND DEMOCRACT Senator sponsor a bill that restricts the waterways that mostly lie in Josephine County?

Remember that majority of the backers behind the bill aren't JOCO residents but reside in Ashland.

Also, in this package was some very restrictive private property rights.
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#12
(04-28-2013, 02:06 PM)Clone Wrote: Those 'few bad apples' are used as an excuse for many

If there is not enough law enforcement to patrol these 'bad apples' and the other miners will do nothing to stop them?

Shut the whole thing down until it can be properly policed.

I consider the creeks, the rivers and the salmon much more important than miners who feel they have a constitutional right to wreak havoc on habitats.

Gosh... for a minute there I thought you were talking about RVF! Wink Razz Ninja
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#13
(04-28-2013, 02:17 PM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 01:37 PM)gapper Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 12:33 PM)Prospector Wrote: Did you know that the River
Keepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills.

OK, I visited these guys' websites. Yes, they are definitely active environmental advocates. So, your premise is that because the were "BIG backers" ( void any "numbers and facts" whatsoever )of Senator Bate's campaign, that they are "the money behind these bills?". IF that is true, I guess it's kind of like the Galice Mining Dist. being the money behind Buchal and his attempted, precedence setting injunction.
The difference is, though, it is general taxpayer money that will have to fund the fight against Buchal's Mouse that Roared efforts..
Kind of like how he sucked the budget of GPID down to almost nothing. But hey, even a disingenuous blood sucking attorney's got to eat!

Hey, I don't defend this attorney just stated that who was working for the miners.

Whether the taxpayer is paying a dime for this effort, I haven't seen it since the parties pay filing fees.
The state is going to have to defend against this frivolous action. That means the tax payers that pay the legal council for the state, all of their staff, as well as the Legislators and Governor are going to have to
pay for this defense.
Quote:Yes, there were "rental businesses" for mining equipment in Medford and Yreka but closed.
Time out again. It is documented that permits for dredge mining in Oregon have something like doubled since the moratorium in Cal. It is said that a disproportionate number of those are to people mining the Rogue and Illinois basins. It is also claimed that many of those miners are coming from No. Cal. Yet, you now say that rental businesses for mining equipment in Medford, as well a Yreka, have closed, presumably from lack of demand. I might be able to buy the Yreka one (MIGHT being the operative word). However, in terms of the Medford one, that too, does not pan out. Further, as has been acknowledged, this is a very seasonal thing. Are you telling me that these seasonal business were profitable and open year around, supported solely by the very seasonal dredge mining industry? I think you're looking at fools gold in the bottom that pan.Smiling
Quote:
Yes, I met several people on the Klamath from Europe and Australia who were dredging for the summer in the 2002-2005.
"Several", from a "numbers and facts" guy, is not real solid.
Quote:Why would an ASHLAND DEMOCRACT Senator sponsor a bill that restricts the waterways that mostly lie in Josephine County?[quote] Yes, there are two bills included. I am more interested and focused on the Suction Dredge Mining one. I don't see SB401 getting much traction.
[quote]
Remember that majority of the backers behind the bill aren't JOCO residents but reside in Ashland.
Again, I want your "facts and numbers". I can't "remember" what you say because I don't know it to be true by any means, and have to wonder how you think you know this to be "fact", based on real "numbers". Source???
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#14
(04-28-2013, 02:06 PM)Clone Wrote: Those 'few bad apples' are used as an excuse for many

If there is not enough law enforcement to patrol these 'bad apples' and the other miners will do nothing to stop them?

Shut the whole thing down until it can be properly policed.

I consider the creeks, the rivers and the salmon much more important than miners who feel they have a constitutional right to wreak havoc on habitats.

Yeah, I like that logic. So if I catch a fisherman catching over the limit of fish, then shut down the river for all fishing until there enough OSP Wildlife guys to do 100% checks.

Or shut down all the rafting guide business or tour operators because of two violators of safety or river operation procedures.

Of course, lets suspend the senior high school class from having graduation ceremonies or a prom because a small group violated school policy.

Yeah, love your logic...constitutional rights? Try learning what they are and mean!
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#15
(04-28-2013, 02:53 PM)gapper Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 02:17 PM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 01:37 PM)gapper Wrote: [quote='Prospector' pid='279915' dateline='1367177588']

Did you know that the River
Keepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills.

OK, I visited these guys' websites. Yes, they are definitely active environmental advocates. So, your premise is that because the were "BIG backers" ( void any "numbers and facts" whatsoever )of Senator Bate's campaign, that they are "the money behind these bills?". IF that is true, I guess it's kind of like the Galice Mining Dist. being the money behind Buchal and his attempted, precedence setting injunction.
The difference is, though, it is general taxpayer money that will have to fund the fight against Buchal's Mouse that Roared efforts..
Kind of like how he sucked the budget of GPID down to almost nothing. But hey, even a disingenuous blood sucking attorney's got to eat!

Hey, I don't defend this attorney just stated that who was working for the miners.

Whether the taxpayer is paying a dime for this effort, I haven't seen it since the parties pay filing fees.
The state is going to have to defend against this frivolous action. That means the tax payers that pay the legal council for the state, all of their staff, as well as the Legislators and Governor are going to have to
pay for this defense.
Quote:Ok, there is only a filing. The only office that'll respond is the Attorney General's office. You reading to much into this.

Yes, there were "rental businesses" for mining equipment in Medford and Yreka but closed.
Time out again. It is documented that permits for dredge mining in Oregon have something like doubled since the moratorium in Cal. It is said that a disproportionate number of those are to people mining the Rogue and Illinois basins. It is also claimed that many of those miners are coming from No. Cal. Yet, you now say that rental businesses for mining equipment in Medford, as well a Yreka, have closed, presumably from lack of demand. I might be able to buy the Yreka one (MIGHT being the operative word). However, in terms of the Medford one, that too, does not pan out. Further, as has been acknowledged, this is a very seasonal thing. Are you telling me that these seasonal business were profitable and open year around, supported solely by the very seasonal dredge mining industry? I think you're looking at fools gold in the bottom that pan.Smiling
Quote:

again, you asked if there were rental businesses. I answered. They also sold other things besides running rentals. Dredging is only one portion of prospecting.
Regarding the increasing permits, I do know that part of that increase was attributed to gold fever due to the jump in gold prices and the big gold find on the Rogue. I believe the news reported over a 4oz nugget was located on the Rogue near Rogue River.
Plus I just checked the New 49er website and their club acquire 15 claims along two major Oregon Rivers.


Yes, I met several people on the Klamath from Europe and Australia who were dredging for the summer in the 2002-2005.
"Several", from a "numbers and facts" guy, is not real solid.
Quote:what is your problem? You seem to want to pick a fight with everyone, ok, 120 over that period, happy now? You really need to up your meds from all appearances or take a Midol.

Why would an ASHLAND DEMOCRACT Senator sponsor a bill that restricts the waterways that mostly lie in Josephine County?
Quote: Yes, there are two bills included. I am more interested and focused on the Suction Dredge Mining one. I don't see SB401 getting much traction.
[quote]
Remember that majority of the backers behind the bill aren't JOCO residents but reside in Ashland.
Again, I want your "facts and numbers". I can't "remember" what you say because I don't know it to be true by any means, and have to wonder how you think you know this to be "fact", based on real "numbers". Source???

Here's a term to look up. DUE DILIGENCE! I'll dumb it down for you, go to the Internet, look up legiscan.com. Do your own research for yourself.

Tried to have a decent conversation with you but you're just out to pick fights with anyone who doesn't agree with you.
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#16
(04-28-2013, 04:37 PM)Prospector Wrote: Yeah, I like that logic. So if I catch a fisherman catching over the limit of fish, then shut down the river for all fishing until there enough OSP Wildlife guys to do 100% checks.

Or shut down all the rafting guide business or tour operators because of two violators of safety or river operation procedures.

Of course, lets suspend the senior high school class from having graduation ceremonies or a prom because a small group violated school policy.

Yeah, love your logic...constitutional rights? Try learning what they are and mean!



Violating policy is radically different than destroying habitat.

Back in the day, folks didn't know any better. Not only did they kill habitats by mining like crazy, they built their outhouses too close to the creek and dumped all kinds of toxic things into our rivers and streams.

Now, we all know better...we have come to understand the inner-connectedness of all living systems. Except for the miners. They think they're more important than the salmon or the water quality.

They deserve a hard time from society...they need to learn to obey the law.
Reply
#17
(04-28-2013, 05:02 PM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 02:53 PM)gapper Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 02:17 PM)Prospector Wrote: [quote='gapper' pid='279925' dateline='1367181423']
[quote='Prospector' pid='279915' dateline='1367177588']

Did you know that the River
Keepers and KSWild were BIG backers of Senator Bates campaigns? They are the money behind these bills.

OK, I visited these guys' websites. Yes, they are definitely active environmental advocates. So, your premise is that because the were "BIG backers" ( void any "numbers and facts" whatsoever )of Senator Bate's campaign, that they are "the money behind these bills?". IF that is true, I guess it's kind of like the Galice Mining Dist. being the money behind Buchal and his attempted, precedence setting injunction.
The difference is, though, it is general taxpayer money that will have to fund the fight against Buchal's Mouse that Roared efforts..
Kind of like how he sucked the budget of GPID down to almost nothing. But hey, even a disingenuous blood sucking attorney's got to eat!

Hey, I don't defend this attorney just stated that who was working for the miners.

Whether the taxpayer is paying a dime for this effort, I haven't seen it since the parties pay filing fees.
The state is going to have to defend against this frivolous action. That means the tax payers that pay the legal council for the state, all of their staff, as well as the Legislators and Governor are going to have to
pay for this defense.
Quote:Ok, there is only a filing. The only office that'll respond is the Attorney General's office. You reading to much into this.

Yes, there were "rental businesses" for mining equipment in Medford and Yreka but closed.
Time out again. It is documented that permits for dredge mining in Oregon have something like doubled since the moratorium in Cal. It is said that a disproportionate number of those are to people mining the Rogue and Illinois basins. It is also claimed that many of those miners are coming from No. Cal. Yet, you now say that rental businesses for mining equipment in Medford, as well a Yreka, have closed, presumably from lack of demand. I might be able to buy the Yreka one (MIGHT being the operative word). However, in terms of the Medford one, that too, does not pan out. Further, as has been acknowledged, this is a very seasonal thing. Are you telling me that these seasonal business were profitable and open year around, supported solely by the very seasonal dredge mining industry? I think you're looking at fools gold in the bottom that pan.Smiling
Quote:

again, you asked if there were rental businesses. I answered. They also sold other things besides running rentals. Dredging is only one portion of prospecting.
Regarding the increasing permits, I do know that part of that increase was attributed to gold fever due to the jump in gold prices and the big gold find on the Rogue. I believe the news reported over a 4oz nugget was located on the Rogue near Rogue River.
Plus I just checked the New 49er website and their club acquire 15 claims along two major Oregon Rivers.


Yes, I met several people on the Klamath from Europe and Australia who were dredging for the summer in the 2002-2005.
"Several", from a "numbers and facts" guy, is not real solid.
Quote:what is your problem? You seem to want to pick a fight with everyone, ok, 120 over that period, happy now? You really need to up your meds from all appearances or take a Midol.

Why would an ASHLAND DEMOCRACT Senator sponsor a bill that restricts the waterways that mostly lie in Josephine County?
Quote: Yes, there are two bills included. I am more interested and focused on the Suction Dredge Mining one. I don't see SB401 getting much traction.
Quote:Remember that majority of the backers behind the bill aren't JOCO residents but reside in Ashland.
Again, I want your "facts and numbers". I can't "remember" what you say because I don't know it to be true by any means, and have to wonder how you think you know this to be "fact", based on real "numbers". Source???

Here's a term to look up. DUE DILIGENCE! I'll dumb it down for you, go to the Internet, look up legiscan.com. Do your own research for yourself.

Tried to have a decent conversation with you but you're just out to pick fights with anyone who doesn't agree with you.

My, my........... it appears it may be you with the anger management issue here. I was merely trying to get specifics from one that claims to be all about facts and numbers. What, did you set your own bar too high, or just get pissy when held to your claims?
Quote: Prospecter:
Ok, new guy on forum. I haven't made up my mind yet because I'm still filtering the FACTS! I work with numbers not personalities.........

......Again, I deal in facts and numbers.

Yet, asking for facts and numbers clearly makes you uncomfortable. Embarrassed
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#18
(04-28-2013, 04:37 PM)Prospector Wrote:
(04-28-2013, 02:06 PM)Clone Wrote: Those 'few bad apples' are used as an excuse for many

If there is not enough law enforcement to patrol these 'bad apples' and the other miners will do nothing to stop them?

Shut the whole thing down until it can be properly policed.

I consider the creeks, the rivers and the salmon much more important than miners who feel they have a constitutional right to wreak havoc on habitats.

Yeah, I like that logic. So if I catch a fisherman catching over the limit of fish, then shut down the river for all fishing until there enough OSP Wildlife guys to do 100% checks.

Or shut down all the rafting guide business or tour operators because of two violators of safety or river operation procedures.

Of course, lets suspend the senior high school class from having graduation ceremonies or a prom because a small group violated school policy.

Yeah, love your logic...constitutional rights? Try learning what they are and mean!

Comparing one person catching over his limit of fish to one or several destroying critical salmon habitat and micro-invertebrates is silly, and does not hold water.
Comparing a rafting operator compromising two people's safety to the possibility of suction dredge miners compromising miles of spawning habitat does not float.

Logic? You mention logic in dissing Clone's opinion?
"Constitutional rights"?? Is there a miner's amendment to the constitution that I've missed??
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#19
This is a ploy paid for by a timberman who wants the feds out of our forests, and his chainsaws back in. And supports treason against us, if that's what it takes.
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#20
I'm a rock hound. You talk about facts and numbers but haven't provided any concrete evidence that miners as a whole are harming the environment. I'll agree their are a few that don't play by the rules but that is indicative of society but we don't punish the majority because of a few.

This seems to be the latest society norm to attack the "whole" for the ills of the few!

Do we close all the campgrounds because of a few bad campers?

I remember in Washington forests there were complaints about dirt bikes tearing up hiking trails. People moved to ban them, then it was ATVs, now it's side by sides ATVs, and the latest move is trail horses.
Clearly, some weren't following the rules.

Clearly mining (dredging) is an enforcement issue and was so stated by State DEQ in their testimony.

You began these thread asking for an opinion, I gave it!
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