Regarding the perceived "dumbing down"
#61
(05-12-2013, 11:01 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 09:31 AM)gapper Wrote: One need do no more than read this one thread to understand how and why this forum appears to be dumbing down.
Few, if any in this thread are innocent of not being party to the dumb down.
I don't know about dumb, but I'll go for barren at times. In my opinion most of the people that post here are wrapped way too tight. This forum is too volatile for most people so people that don't want to fight constantly stop posting or never start.

''What we have is a failure to communicate''

In my opinion, most of the people here are not wrapped way to tight, the problem is some are not wound tight enough and allow emotions and opinions to get in their way.

This is a result of the incivility that has been in place in America since ''greed it good'' took over as the mantra instead of ''we are a nation of people and only as strong as its weakest link''.

Most people never face the kind of bullshit that passes for dialogue found here nor would they tolerate it face to face but anonymity allows people, with underlying anti social behaviour to vent without the repercussion that would take place in real life.

Since the verbally attacked can't physically punch the offending bastard in the face in cyber space leaving the use of words words all that is left. Of course one could ignore them but how can you ignore the elephant in the room forever.

So if people would pretend this RVF is real life and act accordingly the discourse would improve, but some people being so constituted and the so called moderators won't throw off the real offenders, I fear continued behavioural patterns and a small readership, especially in the world and national discussions.

Perhaps a forum devoted to discussions based on debating techniques and the moment a rule of universal debating is breached the offender is not allowed to continue with that discussion. This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing personal.

As Gapper said, we could ''dumb up'' the joint this way.
Reply
#62
(05-12-2013, 10:59 AM)gapper Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 09:57 AM)tvguy Wrote: People who can't understand what sustainable logging is and who live in a freaking log house are really interestingLaughing

The logging that Ponder describes that is taking place in a lot of Douglas County is not sustainable.

I going to stop you right there Gapper. I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of that particular logging show.
But I'm guilty of not specifying the fact that Ponder has NEVER said he was in favor of ANY logging ANYWHERE. Sure he spoke specifically of what he said he "SEES" but he ONLY sees what he wants to see.

And his habit of denigrating GCG because of the industry he is in and because of the people he MUST be involved with is no secret.
Reply
#63
(05-12-2013, 11:44 AM)Leonard Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:01 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 09:31 AM)gapper Wrote: One need do no more than read this one thread to understand how and why this forum appears to be dumbing down.
Few, if any in this thread are innocent of not being party to the dumb down.
I don't know about dumb, but I'll go for barren at times. In my opinion most of the people that post here are wrapped way too tight. This forum is too volatile for most people so people that don't want to fight constantly stop posting or never start.

''What we have is a failure to communicate''

In my opinion, most of the people here are not wrapped way to tight, the problem is some are not wound tight enough and allow emotions and opinions to get in their way.

This is a result of the incivility that has been in place in America since ''greed it good'' took over as the mantra instead of ''we are a nation of people and only as strong as its weakest link''.

Most people never face the kind of bullshit that passes for dialogue found here nor would they tolerate it face to face but anonymity allows people, with underlying anti social behaviour to vent without the repercussion that would take place in real life.

Since the verbally attacked can't physically punch the offending bastard in the face in cyber space leaving the use of words words all that is left. Of course one could ignore them but how can you ignore the elephant in the room forever.

So if people would pretend this RVF is real life and act accordingly the discourse would improve, but some people being so constituted and the so called moderators won't throw off the real offenders, I fear continued behavioural patterns and a small readership, especially in the world and national discussions.

Perhaps a forum devoted to discussions based on debating techniques and the moment a rule of universal debating is breached the offender is not allowed to continue with that discussion. This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing personal.

As Gapper said, we could ''dumb up'' the joint this way.
Quote: personal.
Quote:This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing
You mean Facts like all Americans are stupid fat and lazy and Bush was responsible for 9-11. Or the fact that we DESERVED 9-11.
Reply
#64
(05-12-2013, 11:44 AM)Leonard Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:01 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 09:31 AM)gapper Wrote: One need do no more than read this one thread to understand how and why this forum appears to be dumbing down.
Few, if any in this thread are innocent of not being party to the dumb down.
I don't know about dumb, but I'll go for barren at times. In my opinion most of the people that post here are wrapped way too tight. This forum is too volatile for most people so people that don't want to fight constantly stop posting or never start.

''What we have is a failure to communicate''

In my opinion, most of the people here are not wrapped way to tight, the problem is some are not wound tight enough and allow emotions and opinions to get in their way.

This is a result of the incivility that has been in place in America since ''greed it good'' took over as the mantra instead of ''we are a nation of people and only as strong as its weakest link''.

Most people never face the kind of bullshit that passes for dialogue found here nor would they tolerate it face to face but anonymity allows people, with underlying anti social behaviour to vent without the repercussion that would take place in real life.

Since the verbally attacked can't physically punch the offending bastard in the face in cyber space leaving the use of words words all that is left. Of course one could ignore them but how can you ignore the elephant in the room forever.

So if people would pretend this RVF is real life and act accordingly the discourse would improve, but some people being so constituted and the so called moderators won't throw off the real offenders, I fear continued behavioural patterns and a small readership, especially in the world and national discussions.

Perhaps a forum devoted to discussions based on debating techniques and the moment a rule of universal debating is breached the offender is not allowed to continue with that discussion. This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing personal.

As Gapper said, we could ''dumb up'' the joint this way.
Maybe we are splitting hairs because I agree with much of what you just said. My point is that I have had plenty of discussions with people here that have been informative and constructive. I know that many of the posters here are not dumb. People like yourself, Ponder, Wonk, Antiideologue, gapper, OK I'll stop now before my list omits someone.

So the real issue is the nature of discussions here. People that don't like the BS fighting don't participate. So you could say we are depriving ourselves of some meaningful dialogue, but that does not necessarily mean this place has been dumbed down. All we have to do is follow some rules and you will see that people here are not dumb at all. They may be assholes, but they are not dumb.
Reply
#65
I can handle the dumb much easier than the assholes.
Reply
#66
(05-12-2013, 11:44 AM)Leonard Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:01 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 09:31 AM)gapper Wrote: One need do no more than read this one thread to understand how and why this forum appears to be dumbing down.
Few, if any in this thread are innocent of not being party to the dumb down.
I don't know about dumb, but I'll go for barren at times. In my opinion most of the people that post here are wrapped way too tight. This forum is too volatile for most people so people that don't want to fight constantly stop posting or never start.

''What we have is a failure to communicate''

In my opinion, most of the people here are not wrapped way to tight, the problem is some are not wound tight enough and allow emotions and opinions to get in their way.

This is a result of the incivility that has been in place in America since ''greed it good'' took over as the mantra instead of ''we are a nation of people and only as strong as its weakest link''.

Most people never face the kind of bullshit that passes for dialogue found here nor would they tolerate it face to face but anonymity allows people, with underlying anti social behaviour to vent without the repercussion that would take place in real life.

Since the verbally attacked can't physically punch the offending bastard in the face in cyber space leaving the use of words words all that is left. Of course one could ignore them but how can you ignore the elephant in the room forever.

So if people would pretend this RVF is real life and act accordingly the discourse would improve, but some people being so constituted and the so called moderators won't throw off the real offenders, I fear continued behavioural patterns and a small readership, especially in the world and national discussions.

Perhaps a forum devoted to discussions based on debating techniques and the moment a rule of universal debating is breached the offender is not allowed to continue with that discussion. This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing personal.

As Gapper said, we could ''dumb up'' the joint this way.

Wow!
That this post was leap-froged is so very telling.

This ONE POST is the very kernel of what is wrong, what needs to change, and how attitudes must improve!

I think I'll print it out an tape it to the refrigerator door (where I go most often) as a reminder of what could be.

If we let this slip by, this place will be left to the ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.
Reply
#67
(05-12-2013, 12:23 PM)Wonky Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:44 AM)Leonard Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:01 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 09:31 AM)gapper Wrote: One need do no more than read this one thread to understand how and why this forum appears to be dumbing down.
Few, if any in this thread are innocent of not being party to the dumb down.
I don't know about dumb, but I'll go for barren at times. In my opinion most of the people that post here are wrapped way too tight. This forum is too volatile for most people so people that don't want to fight constantly stop posting or never start.

''What we have is a failure to communicate''

In my opinion, most of the people here are not wrapped way to tight, the problem is some are not wound tight enough and allow emotions and opinions to get in their way.

This is a result of the incivility that has been in place in America since ''greed it good'' took over as the mantra instead of ''we are a nation of people and only as strong as its weakest link''.

Most people never face the kind of bullshit that passes for dialogue found here nor would they tolerate it face to face but anonymity allows people, with underlying anti social behaviour to vent without the repercussion that would take place in real life.

Since the verbally attacked can't physically punch the offending bastard in the face in cyber space leaving the use of words words all that is left. Of course one could ignore them but how can you ignore the elephant in the room forever.

So if people would pretend this RVF is real life and act accordingly the discourse would improve, but some people being so constituted and the so called moderators won't throw off the real offenders, I fear continued behavioural patterns and a small readership, especially in the world and national discussions.

Perhaps a forum devoted to discussions based on debating techniques and the moment a rule of universal debating is breached the offender is not allowed to continue with that discussion. This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing personal.

As Gapper said, we could ''dumb up'' the joint this way.

Wow!
That this post was leap-froged is so very telling.

This ONE POST is the very kernel of what is wrong, what needs to change, and how attitudes must improve!

I think I'll print it out an tape it to the refrigerator door (where I go most often) as a reminder of what could be.

If we let this slip by, this place will be left to the ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

I didn't leap frog it. I quoted it. And I pointed out Leonard's normal ,prevailing message that goes along with most of the threads he starts.
Quote: is the very kernel of what is wrong, what needs to change, and how attitudes must improve!

What is wrong what NEEDS to change how attitude MUST improve?

You are a broken record on this aspect. I wish I had a nickle for how many times I've heard/ "WE MUST STRIVE......

Maybe YOU "MUST" strive But I mustant, how may years have you been here strivingRazz

Quote:If we let this slip by, this place will be left to the ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

If we let what slip by?Blink Personally I LIKE to hear people who don't sound like a politician. Personally I think people SHOULD say on this forum what they wouldn't say in public.
Hellooo that's what makes forums tic.

Here is what so funny to me. All of you polite eggheads who want to talk about all of the important things in the world like you are on Meat the Press.
Seem to flock to threads like this or any controversy that's going onRolling Eyes

It really seems to me like people have selective memory of the past and are now longing for something that never happened.
When in the hell was there a time when there were not a ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

I certainly don't remember it in the six or more years I've been here.
Reply
#68
(05-12-2013, 01:02 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 12:23 PM)Wonky Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:44 AM)Leonard Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:01 AM)cletus1 Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 09:31 AM)gapper Wrote: One need do no more than read this one thread to understand how and why this forum appears to be dumbing down.
Few, if any in this thread are innocent of not being party to the dumb down.
I don't know about dumb, but I'll go for barren at times. In my opinion most of the people that post here are wrapped way too tight. This forum is too volatile for most people so people that don't want to fight constantly stop posting or never start.

''What we have is a failure to communicate''

In my opinion, most of the people here are not wrapped way to tight, the problem is some are not wound tight enough and allow emotions and opinions to get in their way.

This is a result of the incivility that has been in place in America since ''greed it good'' took over as the mantra instead of ''we are a nation of people and only as strong as its weakest link''.

Most people never face the kind of bullshit that passes for dialogue found here nor would they tolerate it face to face but anonymity allows people, with underlying anti social behaviour to vent without the repercussion that would take place in real life.

Since the verbally attacked can't physically punch the offending bastard in the face in cyber space leaving the use of words words all that is left. Of course one could ignore them but how can you ignore the elephant in the room forever.

So if people would pretend this RVF is real life and act accordingly the discourse would improve, but some people being so constituted and the so called moderators won't throw off the real offenders, I fear continued behavioural patterns and a small readership, especially in the world and national discussions.

Perhaps a forum devoted to discussions based on debating techniques and the moment a rule of universal debating is breached the offender is not allowed to continue with that discussion. This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing personal.

As Gapper said, we could ''dumb up'' the joint this way.

Wow!
That this post was leap-froged is so very telling.

This ONE POST is the very kernel of what is wrong, what needs to change, and how attitudes must improve!

I think I'll print it out an tape it to the refrigerator door (where I go most often) as a reminder of what could be.

If we let this slip by, this place will be left to the ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

I didn't leap frog it. I quoted it. And I pointed out Leonard's normal ,prevailing message that goes along with most of the threads he starts.
Quote: is the very kernel of what is wrong, what needs to change, and how attitudes must improve!

What is wrong what NEEDS to change how attitude MUST improve?

You are a broken record on this aspect. I wish I had a nickle for how many times I've heard/ "WE MUST STRIVE......

Maybe YOU "MUST" strive But I mustant, how may years have you been here strivingRazz

Quote:If we let this slip by, this place will be left to the ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

If we let what slip by?Blink Personally I LIKE to hear people who don't sound like a politician. Personally I think people SHOULD say on this forum what they wouldn't say in public.
Hellooo that's what makes forums tic.

Here is what so funny to me. All of you polite eggheads who want to talk about all of the important things in the world like you are on Meat the Press.
Seem to flock to threads like this or any controversy that's going onRolling Eyes

It really seems to me like people have selective memory of the past and are now longing for something that never happened.
When in the hell was there a time when there were not a ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

I certainly don't remember it in the six or more years I've been here.

I'm looking forward to replying TVg, but it's between innings of a baseball game and I don't have time at the moment. I'll bookmark this.
Reply
#69
Think about this sentence:

"Every logging job that I see is an ugly, clear cut disgrace."

My reply to that is, "you're right, but you are not SEEING them all."

The clear cuts stand out because they are easy to see. However, you might drive past another 10 jobs that were not clear cut so you don't even know that you just drove past a bunch of logging jobs.
Reply
#70
I'd love to get the trees on my property clear cut, so I can plant fruit trees.
There was a time I could get paid for them, but it seems trees are not in demand.
Reply
#71
(05-12-2013, 01:51 PM)Wonky Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 01:02 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 12:23 PM)Wonky Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:44 AM)Leonard Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 11:01 AM)cletus1 Wrote: I don't know about dumb, but I'll go for barren at times. In my opinion most of the people that post here are wrapped way too tight. This forum is too volatile for most people so people that don't want to fight constantly stop posting or never start.

''What we have is a failure to communicate''

In my opinion, most of the people here are not wrapped way to tight, the problem is some are not wound tight enough and allow emotions and opinions to get in their way.

This is a result of the incivility that has been in place in America since ''greed it good'' took over as the mantra instead of ''we are a nation of people and only as strong as its weakest link''.

Most people never face the kind of bullshit that passes for dialogue found here nor would they tolerate it face to face but anonymity allows people, with underlying anti social behaviour to vent without the repercussion that would take place in real life.

Since the verbally attacked can't physically punch the offending bastard in the face in cyber space leaving the use of words words all that is left. Of course one could ignore them but how can you ignore the elephant in the room forever.

So if people would pretend this RVF is real life and act accordingly the discourse would improve, but some people being so constituted and the so called moderators won't throw off the real offenders, I fear continued behavioural patterns and a small readership, especially in the world and national discussions.

Perhaps a forum devoted to discussions based on debating techniques and the moment a rule of universal debating is breached the offender is not allowed to continue with that discussion. This would allow only facts and figures to be brought into the realm and nothing personal.

As Gapper said, we could ''dumb up'' the joint this way.

Wow!
That this post was leap-froged is so very telling.

This ONE POST is the very kernel of what is wrong, what needs to change, and how attitudes must improve!

I think I'll print it out an tape it to the refrigerator door (where I go most often) as a reminder of what could be.

If we let this slip by, this place will be left to the ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

I didn't leap frog it. I quoted it. And I pointed out Leonard's normal ,prevailing message that goes along with most of the threads he starts.
Quote: is the very kernel of what is wrong, what needs to change, and how attitudes must improve!

What is wrong what NEEDS to change how attitude MUST improve?

You are a broken record on this aspect. I wish I had a nickle for how many times I've heard/ "WE MUST STRIVE......

Maybe YOU "MUST" strive But I mustant, how may years have you been here strivingRazz

Quote:If we let this slip by, this place will be left to the ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

If we let what slip by?Blink Personally I LIKE to hear people who don't sound like a politician. Personally I think people SHOULD say on this forum what they wouldn't say in public.
Hellooo that's what makes forums tic.

Here is what so funny to me. All of you polite eggheads who want to talk about all of the important things in the world like you are on Meat the Press.
Seem to flock to threads like this or any controversy that's going onRolling Eyes

It really seems to me like people have selective memory of the past and are now longing for something that never happened.
When in the hell was there a time when there were not a ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn.

I certainly don't remember it in the six or more years I've been here.

I'm looking forward to replying TVg, but it's between innings of a baseball game and I don't have time at the moment. I'll bookmark this.

I'm Back, a happy camper. The SF Giants won 3 of 4 from Atlanta, on of the best teams in baseball right now.

So, you like people who "don't sound like a politician". Okay. Whatever that means, I don't remember addressing that. And you say, "I think people SHOULD say on this forum what they wouldn't say in public. Hellooo that's what makes forums tic."

You think that's what makes forums tic" (sic). Helloooo. This IS a public place TVg. Do you see the contradiction in that?

You ask, "When in the hell was there a time when there were not a ranting few, those who simply have a need to confront, slander, behave badly, and never learn. I certainly don't remember it in the six or more years I've been here"

Well TVg, there ya go, making my point for me. And as far as striving for a better platform on which we exchange our comments here, you bet your sweet ass I want to continue to strive. Education is a lifelong experience, and our efforts here to continue to grow and improve our dialog is important. Not important only to me, but simply important as an objective view of how intelligent and aware people choose to conduct their lives. Like sharks, we continue to move or die, at least metaphorically. I don't want to die intellectually.

You are a bright and clever guy with a great sense of humor. You are also often combative and disagreeable. That's not an opinion, that's just a down home fact when we look back on your history here. Your ongoing personal battle with Ponder, for instance, is boring and distracting. Sure, we can ignore it, but it pops up all over the place and makes it difficult.

So yeah, a little "striving" on your part wouldn't hurt. You too, have room to improve your attitude, conduct, and behavior. As do we all.

I'm making these comments directly to you only because this is a reply to your post. We all fail in various ways, and you are not a bad actor on this stage any more than most of us. This is not to single you out in any way other than in the context specific to our exchange here. I could be having the same conversation, for instance, with Ponder. Or others might be directing it toward me. They often have, and I've made adjustments if possible. I'll try to continue to do that.

But don't for a minute suggest this place is typical of social conduct, or that your many negative posts are "what makes a forum tick". Our exchanges here far too often lack any social grace, any reasonable qualities found in most exchanges between people who are smart enough to not fart at table.

It is what it is, to quote our more youthful citizens. When we examine our record here, we see mostly hostile, conflicting, ranting exchanges proving we are the exception,not the norm in our society. While most of these occur on political posts, too often they pop up on other subjects as well.

Strive? You bet. I want to be part of a group who can have fun, exchange all kinds of uncomplicated and simple daily experiences, as well as debate the issues of the day that effect us all.

That doesn't seem all hat radical to me. I'm guessing I''ll see feedback that lets me know for sure.
Reply
#72
Whoah. Wonky. There's too many quotes in that post. Makes my head spin.
Reply
#73
Quote: Wonk....
So, you like people who "don't sound like a politician". Okay. Whatever that means, I don't remember addressing that.

What I mean is we don't and shouldn't have to be so PC. BECAUSE we are on a forum.


Quote: And you say, "I think people SHOULD say on this forum what they wouldn't say in public. Hellooo that's what makes forums tic."

You think that's what makes forums tic" (sic). Helloooo. This IS a public place TVg. Do you see the contradiction in that?

OK so you know what everyone here looks like? Their ethnicity, Their names?

Most are anonymous and that gives people the freedom to say what they want.And you say this is a public place? They why can I sit here in my underwear with no complaints?

My mother said NEVER discuss politics or religion with people. She never heard of the internet. But her advice is still good for the most part. Do you tell Christians you meet at the diner that they are full of horse hockey? Do you think Cletus does.

You know what, I bet Cletus aint even his real nameLaughing



Quote:You are a bright and clever guy with a great sense of humor. You are also often combative and disagreeable. That's not an opinion, that's just a down home fact when we look back on your history here. Your ongoing personal battle with Ponder, for instance, is boring and distracting. Sure, we can ignore it, but it pops up all over the place and makes it difficult.

So yeah, a little "striving" on your part wouldn't hurt. You too, have room to improve your attitude, conduct, and behavior. As do we all.

You are right and I could be the Dali lama tomorrow and someone will come along and replace the real TVguy anyway. That is what I have seen over the years.
I can't change my nature although I'm not always the same, I strive sometimesRazz I enjoy others who are similar to me . I'll go so far as to say this place would suck with out any spice and I won't name names.

BTW there really isn't anything personal with me as far as Ponder. I have issues with his views and I say so. But 10 seconds later we can and have discussed things of a different nature like old pals.
He is the same as I am in that respect.





Quote:But don't for a minute suggest this place is typical of social conduct,

It's not typical of social conduct, it's more REAL, THAT'S MY POINT.


Quote:or that your many negative posts are "what makes a forum tick".

I'm not talking about MY posts! And not negative posts. That's not what I'm talking about.But on the other hand a lot of people don't want to hear the other side. Some people hate to be questioned.

[/quote]
Reply
#74
(05-12-2013, 12:09 PM)cletus1 Wrote: So the real issue is the nature of discussions here. People that don't like the BS fighting don't participate. So you could say we are depriving ourselves of some meaningful dialogue, but that does not necessarily mean this place has been dumbed down. All we have to do is follow some rules and you will see that people here are not dumb at all. They may be assholes, but they are not dumb.

Now I think that about sums it up. I have never thought that the place had gotten dumbed down but I, for one, grew tired of all of the fighting and bickering amongst the same old people. I stop by once in awhile to read what is going on but don't often post anymore. One of my purposes for being here at all is because I still have strong ties to the Valley and like to keep up with what is going on. It often get's difficult to wade through everything to find anything that I feel is relevant. I would be the first to say that there are some extremely bright and some extremely opinionated people that post here. With that being said, I think it is also important to understand that because someone isn't considered bright doesn't mean that their opinions are any less relevant. Politics is always a strong motivator of opinions but after a year or two it does get rather old listening to the same old stuff over and over. It isn't like it takes much perception to know where people stand on issues.

So, let's hope that things mellow out a bit and perhaps we can get back to a semblance of what some of us would call the good ol' days when we actually had a pretty good time here and on previous versions of the forum.
Reply
#75
(05-12-2013, 07:13 PM)imaham Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 12:09 PM)cletus1 Wrote: So the real issue is the nature of discussions here. People that don't like the BS fighting don't participate. So you could say we are depriving ourselves of some meaningful dialogue, but that does not necessarily mean this place has been dumbed down. All we have to do is follow some rules and you will see that people here are not dumb at all. They may be assholes, but they are not dumb.

Now I think that about sums it up. I have never thought that the place had gotten dumbed down but I, for one, grew tired of all of the fighting and bickering amongst the same old people. I stop by once in awhile to read what is going on but don't often post anymore. One of my purposes for being here at all is because I still have strong ties to the Valley and like to keep up with what is going on. It often get's difficult to wade through everything to find anything that I feel is relevant. I would be the first to say that there are some extremely bright and some extremely opinionated people that post here. With that being said, I think it is also important to understand that because someone isn't considered bright doesn't mean that their opinions are any less relevant. Politics is always a strong motivator of opinions but after a year or two it does get rather old listening to the same old stuff over and over. It isn't like it takes much perception to know where people stand on issues.

So, let's hope that things mellow out a bit and perhaps we can get back to a semblance of what some of us would call the good ol' days when we actually had a pretty good time here and on previous versions of the forum.

Were I a FACEBOOK kind of guy, I'd say "I like that".
Reply
#76
Well heck Wonky, let's sign you up then. I might be able to walk you through the process if we go slow. Smiling
Reply
#77
(05-12-2013, 07:23 PM)imaham Wrote: Well heck Wonky, let's sign you up then. I might be able to walk you through the process if we go slow. Smiling

Hammy, there just ain't that kind of slow. Wink
Reply
#78
(05-12-2013, 04:38 PM)GoCometsGo Wrote: Think about this sentence:

"Every logging job that I see is an ugly, clear cut disgrace."

My reply to that is, "you're right, but you are not SEEING them all."

The clear cuts stand out because they are easy to see. However, you might drive past another 10 jobs that were not clear cut so you don't even know that you just drove past a bunch of logging jobs.

I agree.
I have walked more than on commercial thinning project that the average person would likely not recognize as a past logging operation at all.
To me, that is a truly sustainable approach to harvest and should by all means be encouraged and increased.
Reply
#79
(05-12-2013, 09:15 PM)gapper Wrote:
(05-12-2013, 04:38 PM)GoCometsGo Wrote: Think about this sentence:

"Every logging job that I see is an ugly, clear cut disgrace."

My reply to that is, "you're right, but you are not SEEING them all."

The clear cuts stand out because they are easy to see. However, you might drive past another 10 jobs that were not clear cut so you don't even know that you just drove past a bunch of logging jobs.

I agree.
I have walked more than on commercial thinning project that the average person would likely not recognize as a past logging operation at all.
To me, that is a truly sustainable approach to harvest and should by all means be encouraged and increased.

Around here there is still a lot of cable, (yarder), logging going on. Most of it is on private land and most of what you see is on steep terrain. Yarding logs up a steep incline does not lend itself to being selective, although it can be done. I sure don't see much of it. CAT logging is much more wide-spread and much more popular. I would say that for every yarder job that I've been a part of, I've been to 10 CAT jobs.

There are other eco friendly ways to log. Helicopters are just one. Log forwarders are becoming more popular these days too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...warder.jpg

This machine takes the place of a skidder and loader, but can only work on reasonably level terrain.

I know of NO land owners that log with the intention of leaving behind a useless landscape. It does take awhile for a clear cut to recover but it will recover. Quite a lot of what you see being clear cut now was clear cut years ago... and it will be cut again.

Here is one view on clear-cutting:

http://forestry.about.com/od/environment...Debate.htm

Please note that in many clear cutting jobs the loggers and landowners are paying extra to remove trees that they would prefer to leave behind... including hardwood trees. Their motives are long term and probably self-serving... but if its better than only grabbing the Doug fir then who cares?

From the link:

According to the article, a complete clearcut "usually creates the best conditions for regenerating stands" under certain conditions and should be used when those conditions occur.

This is in contrast to a "commercial" clearcut where only trees of marketable species, size and quality are cut. This act of timber "highgrading" is usually done in the absence of a forest management plan where an aggressive logger and willing timber seller consider money as the only harvest outcome.
Reply
#80
(05-13-2013, 06:36 AM)GoCometsGo Wrote: I know of NO land owners that log with the intention of leaving behind a useless landscape.
Are you new to the valley? Ever hear of Jantzer logging? Ever hear of Medco? Ever visit the units that look like a moonscape up above Lost Creek Reservoir??? How about the Scotch Broom plantations along I-5 between Oakland and Cottage Grove?
Quote:Please note that in many clear cutting jobs the loggers and landowners are paying extra to remove trees that they would prefer to leave behind... including hardwood trees. Their motives are long term and probably self-serving... but if its better than only grabbing the Doug fir then who cares?
Ya think!!??
NOTHING but self serving.

Who cares? Those of us that understand the value of a diverse forest over a monoculture propagated only for future harvest. Those of us that understand the disruption to the hydrology of a watershed that clearcuts create and sustain for the 40 some years it takes them to grow back. Those of us that understand the harm that soil compaction can create in a watershed. This ain't Ohio and those mountains (watersheds) ain't corn fields.
Quote:[i]According to the article, a complete clearcut "usually creates the best conditions for regenerating stands"..
of harvestable trees, not forests.

Except in rare instances clearcuts suck. Clearcuts are not the best practices for our ecoSYSTEM.
They benefit only the bottom line of the logger and/or land owner, and hunters due to the brushy forage that comes after the dust has settled. (until massive amounts of chemicals are sprayed to kill them.......... )
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)