Common Core Testing

[Leonard]

If anyone is seriously interested in providing a world class education for this nations youth need only to look at Finland where, no matter how uninterested the parents are, the state makes sure the child gets a good education and healthy meals none the less. After all in a civilized society the children are its greatest asset.

Since Kent State when the conservatives decided that education produced liberals, the goal of the US educational system has been nothing but brainwashing and dumbing down by education to the test and ending electives thus destroying public education and supporting, trade schools, home-schooling and private schools for the monied.

And of course a college education is now left only to those whose families are with funds, a dwindling group since the collage loan programs has turned into another criminal adventure by the lenders leaving the vast majority of those wishing to attend college unable to get an education and that better job.

OMG! I agree with you!

And why not? This is not a left, right up or down issue..............this is about what is in the best interest of children. In fact if people could put aside personal differences and the politics surrounding any issue they would find it much easier to come to an agreement, but that is for another thread.

And it is interesting that many people that decided not to have children care more for their well being and education than many of the parents.

Many good people have tried to improve the system but when it is designed to produce mindless workers and anyone outside the box is outcast you are doomed from the start. How else could people like Reagan, the Bush's, Clinton or Obama ever get elected since they would be laughed off the stage before the primaries by any informed public.

[Wonky]

Fuck Finland


Why oh why can't we be like the fins. I mean after all we have about as much in common as Sarah Palin does with Michael Moore.

Actually TV, when it comes to education, Finland has it right. We should want to have an educational system such as theirs.

Your comment surprises me, BZ.
Finland has a nearly homogenized society with none of the social tensions more modern societies struggle with. It's not perfect of course, they drink a lot and a lot of them drink...plenty. and still they get the kid off to school. So my argument (as usual) is not water tight.

But consider putting the Finnish model in any of our inner city schools, or the very poor rural districts of our county were poverty is widespread. My guess is it would not work so well.

But your point is a good one. Given reasonable conditions where responsible parents, teachers, and the greater society function well, good education is a goal much easier achieved.

And so, in my very uneducated and ill informed opinion, we are going to have to address social problems in our greater culture before we find new and better ways of presenting information in the classroom.

But, you have a lot more sweat equity in this and I hope you have time to expand the discussion. (I can guess that time is one of your more precious commodities).

Thanks for the info this far.

[gapper]

To have a reasonable base of comparison of education outcomes by country, one must first start with the institution of family.
Here's where a big part of our problems begin. Note, the we have more than twice the rate of divorce as Finland.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_di...vorce-rate

Then there is the issue of drug abuse. Finland has one of the lowest drug abuse problems in Europe.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Report+...5240889055

Anyone that believes the schools and the government alone can guarantee a quality education, without the influence of the parents and home life, has probably never raised children, never been involved in schools beyond attending them, and really has no knowledge base from which to form meaningful opinions, in my opinion.

Children are a nations asset and their education and future should not be entirely left to the parenting,

It isn't and, as you say, it should not be. However, to deny the influence parents should have on their child's education is impractical, unless you are advocating taking all children out of the home and making them wards of the government, which I don't think you are.

Education should open the mind of a child not put braces on their brains by teaching to some test.

Agreed.

A truly good education allows children to realize one never stops learning and there is a whole world, not just a country out there to play in

Yup. Just as my children got from our public schools right here in the good ol' easy valley.

And probably the hardest and most important lesson for any child; their parents are imperfect and are filled with their own prejudices, opinions and values that in many cases should not be passed on.

This should come with the open mind part again. If you are suggesting the schools should judge which prejudices, opinions and values are right or wrong, you are suggesting indoctrination, not education. That is not the role of public education.

[blondemom]

What is the Finnish model for Special education? Do they provide the Speech pathology that we do for the kids, what about the other special ed services?

[Leonard]

Size or homogeneity sounds like a racist excuse and is hardly a reason to dismiss the Finnish example since foreign-born residents in Finland doubled from 2000 to 2010, yet Finland's education system continued to improve.

Finland's aim is to have a good, public funded education from Kindergarten to PhD for every child regardless of where they go to school or what kind of families they come from from.

To the naysayers -- Finland's experience shows that it is possible to achieve excellence by focusing on cooperation and equity instead of competition and choice.

Finland's example has proven ethnic diversity is not the problem in America, it is the ever increasing economic inequality of its society and that is exactly what the Finnish education reform addressed so successfully.

[broadzilla]

What is the Finnish model for Special education? Do they provide the Speech pathology that we do for the kids, what about the other special ed services?

They have IEP's just like we do. Difference being, they are totally inclusion-based. They also offer more vocational opportunities for their students who are not as "capable" academically.

[Valuesize]

If anyone is seriously interested in providing a world class education for this nations youth need only to look at Finland where, no matter how uninterested the parents are, the state makes sure the child gets a good education and healthy meals none the less. After all in a civilized society the children are its greatest asset.

Since Kent State when the conservatives decided that education produced liberals, the goal of the US educational system has been nothing but brainwashing and dumbing down by education to the test and ending electives thus destroying public education and supporting, trade schools, home-schooling and private schools for the monied.

And of course a college education is now left only to those whose families are with funds, a dwindling group since the collage loan programs has turned into another criminal adventure by the lenders leaving the vast majority of those wishing to attend college unable to get an education and that better job.

OMG! I agree with you!

Me too!

[Lucy]

End of the school year craziness limits me to a short response on this issue, so I've included a link to a little video about standardized tests....
(some of you may have seen this before)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RrreVthWRY

[Prospero]

Three things are noteworthy about the Finnish system (from this discussion):

1) Teachers must have master's degrees;

2) Administrators get the same pay as teachers;

3) The Finns are willing to spend money on education.

I would assume that the master's degree would be in a subject other than Education itself. In my experience (which is as a parent, not a professional educator), the teachers themselves tend to hold the educational establishment in low esteem, and I have heard the epithet "educationalist" used to describe those people who get Ph.D.s in Education and go on to administrative careers with little or no classroom experience.

I think there's no substitute for a knowledgeable enthusiasm for one's subject of study, whether it be history, biology, carpentry, or sports, for anyone trying to teach anyone else about it. Educational standards would be raised enormously if teachers in the elementary and secondary levels had the same level of training that's required of college teachers (e.g. a master's degree or its equivalent in professional experience). This would be expensive, but why not do a good job of it?

[Tiamat]

Personally, I don't think the USA is interested too much in actually improving education. I think they are very, very concerned about how to make money from it. Student loans, curriculum sales, testing sales. The creators and suppliers of said testing methods make money hand over fist. The original No Child Left Behind curriculum was hand in glove cronies with Bush. They made a fortune by being the supplier of the approved testing materials.

[tvguy]

Size or homogeneity sounds like a racist excuse and is hardly a reason to dismiss the Finnish example since foreign-born residents in Finland doubled from 2000 to 2010, yet Finland's education system continued to improve.

Right you are. They used to have a black man and women living in Finland.
They had two kids.

[tvguy]

Personally, I don't think the USA is interested too much in actually improving education. I think they are very, very concerned about how to make money from it. Student loans, curriculum sales, testing sales. The creators and suppliers of said testing methods make money hand over fist. The original No Child Left Behind curriculum was hand in glove cronies with Bush. They made a fortune by being the supplier of the approved testing materials.

The USA?

[gapper]

Personally, I don't think the USA is interested too much in actually improving education. I think they are very, very concerned about how to make money from it. Student loans, curriculum sales, testing sales. The creators and suppliers of said testing methods make money hand over fist. The original No Child Left Behind curriculum was hand in glove cronies with Bush. They made a fortune by being the supplier of the approved testing materials.

The USA?

I wondered about that too.
Pretty all encompassing, isn't it?

[tvguy]

Personally, I don't think the USA is interested too much in actually improving education. I think they are very, very concerned about how to make money from it. Student loans, curriculum sales, testing sales. The creators and suppliers of said testing methods make money hand over fist. The original No Child Left Behind curriculum was hand in glove cronies with Bush. They made a fortune by being the supplier of the approved testing materials.

The USA?

I wondered about that too.
Pretty all encompassing, isn't it?

Yup. Sorry Tia but you sounded almost Leonardish I think most politicians probably want our schools to be top notch. Maybe too many are not interested enough but I think most know that there isn't an easy fix.

[Wonky]

What is the Finnish model for Special education? Do they provide the Speech pathology that we do for the kids, what about the other special ed services?

They have IEP's just like we do. Difference being, they are totally inclusion-based. They also offer more vocational opportunities for their students who are not as "capable" academically.

Some of us don't understand the jargon. What is IEP? And what does "inclusion based' mean?

You either neglected to respond, or did not choose to answer, my previous post concerning the social differences between Finland and countries with a more diverse population including a significant number of parents who do not honor education. Parenting is the single most important indicator in how well students do in school. Even poor districts with parents who value education well. The best, but not only example of this has been the Jewish neighborhoods in our urban centers.

In the US, our "educational system" is a direct result of our differing social systems, and almost always people with money support local public schools that graduate high achievers. Private schools almost always do even better. There are of course exceptions, as noted above.

Even within the systems, and often even using small samples, the achievements vary greatly. I was a lousy student in a not great school. Yet, some of the others in that school went on to university educations and did well in chosen professions.

Complex stuff. Like most things, the devil is in the details and we should be guarded in making sweeping generalizations in our suggestions about fixing this thing.

Common Core Testing? I hope to learn more about it, but my first reaction is that it is filled with pitfalls and an administrative nightmare.

We can hope for the best. In the end it will take more than hope.

[Leonard]

Personally, I don't think the USA is interested too much in actually improving education. I think they are very, very concerned about how to make money from it. Student loans, curriculum sales, testing sales. The creators and suppliers of said testing methods make money hand over fist. The original No Child Left Behind curriculum was hand in glove cronies with Bush. They made a fortune by being the supplier of the approved testing materials.

The USA?

I wondered about that too.
Pretty all encompassing, isn't it?

Yup. Sorry Tia but you sounded almost Leonardish I think most politicians probably want our schools to be top notch. Maybe too many are not interested enough but I think most know that there isn't an easy fix.

There is an easy solution, throw out this corrupted system and follow the example set by Finland and the other countries that are not flushing their tax dollars away on wars and needless tax cuts and spend whatever it takes to provide a quality education for all.

Of course Finland also has a public health care system so for children and their parents health care is not an issue.

There were the cynics but the intelligence of the Finnish plan prevailed and the children, their parents and society have been the beneficiaries.

There are certainly enough people with masters degrees in America that would be more than happy to teach their beloved subjects so that's not a problem with changing this system but the willingness to spend money necessary is the major difference between the US, and the much higher ranked systems from Japan, Korea and Finland

But US school administrators and the Teachers unions are also a big part of the problem as their Ox would certainly be gored by going to a publicly funded education system, staffed by experts in their field.

And it really looks like, to even the most causal observer that the Federal government is seriously not interested in an educated population.

So the solution really boils down to the fact that America needs change in order to meet the challenges of the 21st century or it will continue its inexorable slid back to the 9th century.

[Tiamat]

Personally, I don't think the USA is interested too much in actually improving education. I think they are very, very concerned about how to make money from it. Student loans, curriculum sales, testing sales. The creators and suppliers of said testing methods make money hand over fist. The original No Child Left Behind curriculum was hand in glove cronies with Bush. They made a fortune by being the supplier of the approved testing materials.

The USA?

I wondered about that too.
Pretty all encompassing, isn't it?

Yup. Sorry Tia but you sounded almost Leonardish I think most politicians probably want our schools to be top notch. Maybe too many are not interested enough but I think most know that there isn't an easy fix.

That's an idealistic view at best TV. Trust me on this. No? then do a bit of your own research out there about the beginnings and inception of No Child Left Behind. Don't listen to me. Look at the facts about who was profiting off the situation. It's hardly hidden except to those who don't bother looking. Tests like these are universally reviled amongst educators for cookie cuttering kids into passing regimented testing. Testing that test performance but not potential. Potential that is left un harvested.
You think our nation and politicians want better schooling.???Seriously? they've got decades of failure behind them to teach them better that capitalism and education don't mix. But do they listen? Go check it out on a deeper level TV. Get a REAL education. In fact, your reaction, sounds like the typical, blindered, rose colored glasses version of what's happening without having a single clue of how it actually is working in real time in a real world.

[gapper]

But US school administrators and the Teachers unions are also a big part of the problem as their Ox would certainly be gored by going to a publicly funded education system, staffed by experts in their field.

We have a publicly funded education system. We have experts in their field for staff, in many instances, not all.

Much of the problem is the fact that so many in the general population see themselves as education experts, when in fact they are not. Not even close..... And, some of these wanna be experts get themselves elected to positions of power and meddle with the education system. If you believe standardized testing comes from expert educators, you are mistaken.

[gapper]

Some of us don't understand the jargon. What is IEP? And what does "inclusion based' mean?

IEP = Individual Education Plan. An education plan developed for the individual child to serve them in a fashion that accounts for their particular disability. Inclusion based means they are included completely within the general population of students. When we (I) was a kid, the special ed kids were kept in a separate section of the school and excluded from most all of the usual interactions of a typical school day.

[gapper]

There are certainly enough people with masters degrees in America that would be more than happy to teach their beloved subjects so that's not a problem with changing this system but the willingness to spend money necessary is the major difference between the US, and the much higher ranked systems from Japan, Korea and Finland

I agree that if we were to pay comparable salaries and benefits, we could attract people with masters degrees to teach the subjects they specialize in. I am not "certain" there are enough that would do that. Most teachers are teachers because teaching and kids are their beloved subjects. If one's beloved subject is engineering and that is what they dedicated years of their lives to learn to do, why would we think they would readily jump to teaching instead of engineering? I don't think that.

When you bring Japan and Korea into your argument and suggest we emulate those countries and their education system, you are suggesting we not offer free access to education for ALL children. You are suggesting rather, that we have leaders that determine for us, which children will be educated, which will be field workers, which will be soldiers, which will be hidden away from public interaction, etc., etc. Not a place I wish to be.