I Talk To The Wind
#1
http://www.fresnobee.com/2013/08/04/3424...pered.html



By Trevor Graff — Bee Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON — The windswept prairies of the Midwest are undergoing an energy transformation the grid can't handle.

Wind turbines tower over rural vistas in the heartland, where the clean energy source is becoming increasingly popular with utility companies that face state-mandated renewable energy standards. Unfortunately, the nation's aging power grid is hampering those efforts.

At the end of last year, installed wind-generation capacity totaled 60 gigawatts nationwide — 5% of the nation's production capacity — according to data from the U.S. Energy Department's National Renewable Energy Laboratory. Another 135 gigawatts of potential wind production awaits development and connection to the grid, according to industry data.

"There hasn't been a lot of investment in the grid for the last two decades," said Michael Goggin, a senior analyst at the American Wind Energy Association, a trade group. "We just don't have a strong grid that's built out in the parts of the country where there are a lot of wind resources."

The transmission grid was built a generation ago for coal, nuclear and hydropower plants without renewable energy in mind. It makes transmission from wind farms in rural areas difficult and costly.

The shortfall in transmission capacity hasn't gone unnoticed. Gil Bindewald, a project manager at the Department of Energy, said decision makers had to consider policy, technology and financing when dealing with transmission issues: "There is no silver bullet solution for effectively integrating renewable sources of energy such as wind onto the grid."

The growth of the nation's wind-power supply is evident on a remote stretch of Kansas Highway 23, where the spinning blades of wind turbines quickly surround motorists near the town of Cimarron. The site, which has 57 turbines spread over 16,000 acres of leased farmland, is capable of powering 40,000 homes with 131 megawatts of production.

But Duke Energy and Sumitomo Corp., which brought the project online in June 2012, face significant congestion as they try to bring that energy to the market.

Greg Wolf, the renewables president at Duke Energy, wouldn't comment on the level of congestion, but he said the bottleneck was noticeable: "Because it's new and because there's variability in wind versus a traditional gas-fired unit, there's been a learning curve here. "Not to mention the fact that we've added a large number of new megawatts at a quick pace."

Wolf said deficiencies in the grid and differing state policies on placement of transmission lines are key causes of congestion.
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#2
Oh. I thought we were code talking again.
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#3
we can be.
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#4
They should be making hydrogen with the extra electricity.
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#5
(08-05-2013, 02:51 PM)PonderThis Wrote: They should be making hydrogen with the extra electricity.

Or making electricity with the extra hydrogen.

Is this a great country, or what? Laughing
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#6
I think there are some other storage technologies as well, such as turning the electricity into heat and then storing that in molten salt. In any event, I'm sure they can find a way to use this extra energy without feeding it all at once into the power lines.
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#7
(08-05-2013, 04:33 PM)PonderThis Wrote: I think there are some other storage technologies as well, such as turning the electricity into heat and then storing that in molten salt.

How does that solve the problem? What do you do with a bunch of stored heat in the middle of nowhere?
I don't think there is any better way to transmit energy then using high voltage power lines.
They need to build them. Who the hell are the geniuses who didn't foresee this?
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#8
(08-05-2013, 06:09 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 04:33 PM)PonderThis Wrote: I think there are some other storage technologies as well, such as turning the electricity into heat and then storing that in molten salt.

How does that solve the problem? What do you do with a bunch of stored heat in the middle of nowhere?
I don't think there is any better way to transmit energy then using high voltage power lines.
They need to build them. Who the hell are the geniuses who didn't foresee this?

Well, maybe.
There is a lot of energy loss in transmission lines. But, we live with what we have. Ponders thought about storing heat is good. Storage has been the golden egg of electrical theory for a very long time. It's a tough riddle, and while there is a lot of money in R&D, as yet they haven't figured it out.
Imagine, the benefit of practical and efficient electrical storage for people in rural settings! We would save billions is long line extensions alone. When you go to town for groceries, you swap our your "energy pack".
Someday...
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#9
(08-05-2013, 06:09 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 04:33 PM)PonderThis Wrote: I think there are some other storage technologies as well, such as turning the electricity into heat and then storing that in molten salt.

What do you do with a bunch of stored heat in the middle of nowhere?

You use the stored heat to run turbines during periods that power is needed and the wind isn't blowing. That stored heat can be used to boil water (for conventional steam turbines) or, at lower temperatures, by boiling refrigerant gasses and running turbines with that instead.
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#10
(08-05-2013, 07:04 PM)PonderThis Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 06:09 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 04:33 PM)PonderThis Wrote: I think there are some other storage technologies as well, such as turning the electricity into heat and then storing that in molten salt.

What do you do with a bunch of stored heat in the middle of nowhere?

You use the stored heat to run turbines during periods that power is needed and the wind isn't blowing. That stored heat can be used to boil water (for conventional steam turbines) or, at lower temperatures, by boiling refrigerant gasses and running turbines with that instead.

Sound great Ponder but I fear it's just something you just imagine and it's no where near happening or being cost effective.
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#11
How much could salt cost?
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#12
(08-05-2013, 06:52 PM)Wonky Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 06:09 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 04:33 PM)PonderThis Wrote: I think there are some other storage technologies as well, such as turning the electricity into heat and then storing that in molten salt.

How does that solve the problem? What do you do with a bunch of stored heat in the middle of nowhere?
I don't think there is any better way to transmit energy then using high voltage power lines.
They need to build them. Who the hell are the geniuses who didn't foresee this?

Well, maybe.
There is a lot of energy loss in transmission lines. But, we live with what we have. Ponders thought about storing heat is good. Storage has been the golden egg of electrical theory for a very long time. It's a tough riddle, and while there is a lot of money in R&D, as yet they haven't figured it out.
Imagine, the benefit of practical and efficient electrical storage for people in rural settings! We would save billions is long line extensions alone. When you go to town for groceries, you swap our your "energy pack".
Someday...

I've been reading about the possibility of transmitting electrical power withlasers for a long long time.Maybe someday.
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