Gresham bakery that refused to bake same-sex wedding cake closes shop

[PonderThis]

Ever walk into a bar in Harlem if you weren't Black? Try arguing discrimination there?

Point is, there are places you know where you just aren't welcome!

And, those establishments might get away with it, too. Not in Oregon though. We have laws with teeth in them too just special for that sort of thing.

[Prospector]

What it barrels down to, which seems to be the norm these days, was two people saw an opportunity to sue, probably got a pro bono attorney, and make money.

You don't see Jewish patrons walking into Arab bakeries because of common sense.

These two were looking to make a point, probably scouted the bakery before hand, and knew the outcome too!

Really? I'm not of Mexican descent but I go to Mexican restaurants quite often. I'm not French but there is a yummy little French bakery we love. Chinese? Nope! But we eat at Chinese restaurants a lot! And... I'm not Jewish but have eaten at Kornblatt's in Portland a few times... best Kosher Corned Beef sandwich and Matzo Ball soup I've ever had! None of them have ever refused to serve me.

You live in Oregon. Try going back east where there are neighborhoods that divided by cultures.

But for example if you were refused service because the owner didn't serve people who had tattoos, what would you do? Go somewhere else or cause a ruckus and sue?

Personally, I go somewhere else, drop a bad review on Angie's List and spread the word.

My point by using my example, (which I doubt you are neither Jewish or Arab by your pics and dress style) is you sometimes avoid places based on experience or culture.

I have lived in both cultures, they avoid trouble by not testing it. I avoid places that don't rate well, get poor reviews, or just give me a bad feeling.

It's called choice. I believe in it. I have the choice to serve you or not, you have the choice to patronize my business or not.

If you and yours are rowdy in a restaurant, I have the right to complain to management and they have the right to ask you to refrain or leave.


It's again called choice.

[PonderThis]

It's called choice. I believe in it. I have the choice to serve you or not

Not if it's a protected class of discrimination and you're in Oregon, you don't. Sorry.

Perhaps you'd prefer life in Idaho?

[Prospector]

It's called choice. I believe in it. I have the choice to serve you or not

Not if it's a protected class of discrimination and you're in Oregon, you don't. Sorry.

Perhaps you'd prefer life in Idaho?

Gays are a "protected class?" I thought they were fighting for equality or is their equality better than others?

[Scrapper]

What it barrels down to, which seems to be the norm these days, was two people saw an opportunity to sue, probably got a pro bono attorney, and make money.

You don't see Jewish patrons walking into Arab bakeries because of common sense.

These two were looking to make a point, probably scouted the bakery before hand, and knew the outcome too!

Really? I'm not of Mexican descent but I go to Mexican restaurants quite often. I'm not French but there is a yummy little French bakery we love. Chinese? Nope! But we eat at Chinese restaurants a lot! And... I'm not Jewish but have eaten at Kornblatt's in Portland a few times... best Kosher Corned Beef sandwich and Matzo Ball soup I've ever had! None of them have ever refused to serve me.

You live in Oregon. Try going back east where there are neighborhoods that divided by cultures.

But for example if you were refused service because the owner didn't serve people who had tattoos, what would you do? Go somewhere else or cause a ruckus and sue?

Personally, I go somewhere else, drop a bad review on Angie's List and spread the word.

My point by using my example, (which I doubt you are neither Jewish or Arab by your pics and dress style) is you sometimes avoid places based on experience or culture.

I have lived in both cultures, they avoid trouble by not testing it. I avoid places that don't rate well, get poor reviews, or just give me a bad feeling.

It's called choice. I believe in it. I have the choice to serve you or not, you have the choice to patronize my business or not.

If you and yours are rowdy in a restaurant, I have the right to complain to management and they have the right to ask you to refrain or leave.


It's again called choice.

Maybe you're a yellow bellied sap suckin' weenie.
If I haven't caused a ruckus and you refuse to serve me... you bet your ass I will cause a ruckus.

[PonderThis]

Gays are a "protected class?"

Yes. It's called the "Oregon Equality Act of 2007". You can look it up.

[Prospector]

What it barrels down to, which seems to be the norm these days, was two people saw an opportunity to sue, probably got a pro bono attorney, and make money.

You don't see Jewish patrons walking into Arab bakeries because of common sense.

These two were looking to make a point, probably scouted the bakery before hand, and knew the outcome too!

Really? I'm not of Mexican descent but I go to Mexican restaurants quite often. I'm not French but there is a yummy little French bakery we love. Chinese? Nope! But we eat at Chinese restaurants a lot! And... I'm not Jewish but have eaten at Kornblatt's in Portland a few times... best Kosher Corned Beef sandwich and Matzo Ball soup I've ever had! None of them have ever refused to serve me.

You live in Oregon. Try going back east where there are neighborhoods that divided by cultures.

But for example if you were refused service because the owner didn't serve people who had tattoos, what would you do? Go somewhere else or cause a ruckus and sue?

Personally, I go somewhere else, drop a bad review on Angie's List and spread the word.

My point by using my example, (which I doubt you are neither Jewish or Arab by your pics and dress style) is you sometimes avoid places based on experience or culture.

I have lived in both cultures, they avoid trouble by not testing it. I avoid places that don't rate well, get poor reviews, or just give me a bad feeling.

It's called choice. I believe in it. I have the choice to serve you or not, you have the choice to patronize my business or not.

If you and yours are rowdy in a restaurant, I have the right to complain to management and they have the right to ask you to refrain or leave.


It's again called choice.

Maybe you're a yellow bellied sap suckin' weenie.
If I haven't caused a ruckus and you refuse to serve me... you bet your ass I will cause a ruckus.

No, the business owner would just call the police and then your ruckus would be possibly a disorderly conduct charge.

No, I have no trouble turning around and walking out. It's my money and I'll deprive him of it. I'll pick my battles and that isn't a battle worth fighting over.

I'll just spread the word and that will eventually hurt business. If he refuses one tattoo person, he's refused others.

[PonderThis]

I'm not sure there's any law against refusing tattooed people.

[tornado]

If you serve the public you can't discriminate against others because you don't like their lifestyle. Been that way for a long time. In theory. Why does anyone think it is their business who wants to marry who? Why not just mind your own business? It's really quite simple.

A business owner does not lose their first amendment right to freedom of religion. This is all about the money. There is no valid reason these people could not have gone to a gay baker.

And if they believed that interfaith marriage was wrong?

And if they believed that interracial marriage was wrong?

Not a part of New Testament doctrine.

What does that have to do with anything?

What if some bakery owners were of a religion that condemned interfaith or interracial marriage?

What of their freedom of religion?

The bakery owners are Christians. Interfaith and interracial marriage is not forbidden in the Christian religion; which is what is relevant here.

[chuck white]

I don't think you see the point, CSrowen wasn't saying that Christians forbid Interfaith and interracial marriage.
He said that forbidding 'Gay lifestyle' was on the same level of discrimination.

[cletus1]

What it barrels down to, which seems to be the norm these days, was two people saw an opportunity to sue, probably got a pro bono attorney, and make money.

You don't see Jewish patrons walking into Arab bakeries because of common sense.

These two were looking to make a point, probably scouted the bakery before hand, and knew the outcome too!

Really? I'm not of Mexican descent but I go to Mexican restaurants quite often. I'm not French but there is a yummy little French bakery we love. Chinese? Nope! But we eat at Chinese restaurants a lot! And... I'm not Jewish but have eaten at Kornblatt's in Portland a few times... best Kosher Corned Beef sandwich and Matzo Ball soup I've ever had! None of them have ever refused to serve me.

You live in Oregon. Try going back east where there are neighborhoods that divided by cultures.

But for example if you were refused service because the owner didn't serve people who had tattoos, what would you do? Go somewhere else or cause a ruckus and sue?

Personally, I go somewhere else, drop a bad review on Angie's List and spread the word.

My point by using my example, (which I doubt you are neither Jewish or Arab by your pics and dress style) is you sometimes avoid places based on experience or culture.

I have lived in both cultures, they avoid trouble by not testing it. I avoid places that don't rate well, get poor reviews, or just give me a bad feeling.

It's called choice. I believe in it. I have the choice to serve you or not, you have the choice to patronize my business or not.

If you and yours are rowdy in a restaurant, I have the right to complain to management and they have the right to ask you to refrain or leave.


It's again called choice.

Tell us where you lived in the Northeast and where you found Jews, Arabs, Hispanics or whites self segregating by their restaurant choices. I lived there so I am so looking forward to hearing about your experience. Racism is not cool Prospector; don't create it where it does not already exist mmkay? Think soup Nazi.

[csrowan]

A business owner does not lose their first amendment right to freedom of religion. This is all about the money. There is no valid reason these people could not have gone to a gay baker.

And if they believed that interfaith marriage was wrong?

And if they believed that interracial marriage was wrong?

Not a part of New Testament doctrine.

What does that have to do with anything?

What if some bakery owners were of a religion that condemned interfaith or interracial marriage?

What of their freedom of religion?

The bakery owners are Christians. Interfaith and interracial marriage is not forbidden in the Christian religion; which is what is relevant here.

Did you or did you not say "A business owner does not lose their first amendment right to freedom of religion."?

Yes, this case is about a couple who only refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. But your statement implies that any business can refuse to serve anyone on the basis of what religion the business owner has.

If a baker refuses to make a wedding cake for gays, interracial couples, or interfaith couples, that's A-OK with you, as long as it's for religious reasons?

Or if a hotel refuses to rent rooms to unmarried couples (or gays, or interracial couples, or interfaith couples...), as long as it's for religious reasons, you're fine with that?

[chuck white]

Actually it comes down to protection by law.

Discrimination in Public Accommodation
A place of public accommodation is defined in state law as any place that offers the public accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges, whether in the nature of goods, services, lodging, amusements or otherwise. It is illegal to discriminate in places of public accommodation on the basis of race, sex (including pregnancy), sexual orientation, national origin, religion, marital status, physical or mental disability, or age (18 years of age and older).

Local Ordinances in Portland, Eugene, Salem and Corvallis, and Benton and Multnomah Counties , , include source of income
http://www.oregon.gov/boli/CRD/pages/c_c...aspx#state

So the question comes down to what services they offered.

If they offered custom cakes with names, dates, messages and general written words or symbols. Than they were discriminating.

If on the other hand they offered only traditional man/woman wedding cakes and was willing to sell them one. Then no they didn't discriminate.

[cletus1]

Actually it comes down to protection by law.

Discrimination in Public Accommodation
A place of public accommodation is defined in state law as any place that offers the public accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges, whether in the nature of goods, services, lodging, amusements or otherwise. It is illegal to discriminate in places of public accommodation on the basis of race, sex (including pregnancy), sexual orientation, national origin, religion, marital status, physical or mental disability, or age (18 years of age and older).

Local Ordinances in Portland, Eugene, Salem and Corvallis, and Benton and Multnomah Counties , , include source of income
http://www.oregon.gov/boli/CRD/pages/c_c...aspx#state

So the question comes down to what services they offered.

If they offered custom cakes with names, dates, messages and general written words or symbols. Than they were discriminating.

If on the other hand they offered only traditional man/woman wedding cakes and was willing to sell them one. Then no they didn't discriminate.

Whether they were discriminating or not according to your strict definition of the word, the cake folks are reaping their rewards. Maybe the non haters that have decided not to patronize their cake joint are the discriminators. Yeah baby, discrimination is not necessarily a bad thing.

[PonderThis]

Actually it comes down to protection by law.

Discrimination in Public Accommodation
A place of public accommodation is defined in state law as any place that offers the public accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges, whether in the nature of goods, services, lodging, amusements or otherwise. It is illegal to discriminate in places of public accommodation on the basis of race, sex (including pregnancy), sexual orientation, national origin, religion, marital status, physical or mental disability, or age (18 years of age and older).

Local Ordinances in Portland, Eugene, Salem and Corvallis, and Benton and Multnomah Counties , , include source of income
http://www.oregon.gov/boli/CRD/pages/c_c...aspx#state

So the question comes down to what services they offered.

If they offered custom cakes with names, dates, messages and general written words or symbols. Than they were discriminating.

If on the other hand they offered only traditional man/woman wedding cakes and was willing to sell them one. Then no they didn't discriminate.

According to this site public accommodations are only part of the rights extended by this law: http://data.lambdalegal.org/pdf/fs_orego...ty-act.pdf

"The Oregon Equality Act forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity or expression in several critical areas:

? Employment in all state, municipal and private workplaces
? Public accommodations, meaning places open to the public such as businesses that sell goods or services, recreational facilities and providers of medical services
? Housing and financial transactions such as real estate rental and sales, as well as applications for credit and insurance
? Jury service
? State institutions such as prisons, jails or any facility operated by the Department of Corrections
? Foster parenting and the provision of adult foster care
? Public school education, including public charter schools"

[Snowlover]

One of my favorite commentators says it best for me:

When same-sex marriage proponents first began advocating for it, they argued that if you weren’t gay, it wouldn’t affect you in the least. What ever happened to that?….As more and more states legalize same-sex marriage, the argument that if you don’t agree, it won’t affect you is no longer operational. Oregon passed a same-sex marriage constitutional amendment, but failed to include an exception for religious beliefs. A bakery in Willamette called Sweet Cakes by Melissa turned down a job catering a lesbian wedding. The owner said he has nothing against gay people, but same-sex marriage is just against his religious beliefs. Any number of bakeries would have taken the job, but the couple filed a discrimination complaint. Now, the bakery has been so put upon, they’ve closed up shop and are becoming a home business. All because the right to same-sex marriage apparently trumps the First Amendment right to freedom of religion. Do we really want to enforce tolerance by being intolerant? Mike Huckabee

[csrowan]

You bake a cake. That's your job. Someone asks for a cake, you bake it.

What they use that cake for shouldn't matter. If it does, maybe you're in the wrong business.

If how someone uses your product is important to you, maybe you should be in an industry where you can control how your product is used. Like Apple does.

[Scar]

You bake a cake. That's your job. Someone asks for a cake, you bake it.

Unless they're gay.

[Prospector]

What it barrels down to, which seems to be the norm these days, was two people saw an opportunity to sue, probably got a pro bono attorney, and make money.

You don't see Jewish patrons walking into Arab bakeries because of common sense.

These two were looking to make a point, probably scouted the bakery before hand, and knew the outcome too!

Really? I'm not of Mexican descent but I go to Mexican restaurants quite often. I'm not French but there is a yummy little French bakery we love. Chinese? Nope! But we eat at Chinese restaurants a lot! And... I'm not Jewish but have eaten at Kornblatt's in Portland a few times... best Kosher Corned Beef sandwich and Matzo Ball soup I've ever had! None of them have ever refused to serve me.

You live in Oregon. Try going back east where there are neighborhoods that divided by cultures.

But for example if you were refused service because the owner didn't serve people who had tattoos, what would you do? Go somewhere else or cause a ruckus and sue?

Personally, I go somewhere else, drop a bad review on Angie's List and spread the word.

My point by using my example, (which I doubt you are neither Jewish or Arab by your pics and dress style) is you sometimes avoid places based on experience or culture.

I have lived in both cultures, they avoid trouble by not testing it. I avoid places that don't rate well, get poor reviews, or just give me a bad feeling.

It's called choice. I believe in it. I have the choice to serve you or not, you have the choice to patronize my business or not.

If you and yours are rowdy in a restaurant, I have the right to complain to management and they have the right to ask you to refrain or leave.


It's again called choice.

Tell us where you lived in the Northeast and where you found Jews, Arabs, Hispanics or whites self segregating by their restaurant choices. I lived there so I am so looking forward to hearing about your experience. Racism is not cool Prospector; don't create it where it does not already exist mmkay? Think soup Nazi.

Ever been to New Jersey or New York? I think you haven't? How about Boston? There are sectional neighborhoods in Chicago and Detroit? Ever heard of Harlem?

You might have come from there but you really didn't live the experience there!

Need it closer? How about LA, like eastside.

[chuck white]

One of my favorite commentators says it best for me:

When same-sex marriage proponents first began advocating for it, they argued that if you weren’t gay, it wouldn’t affect you in the least. What ever happened to that?….As more and more states legalize same-sex marriage, the argument that if you don’t agree, it won’t affect you is no longer operational. Oregon passed a same-sex marriage constitutional amendment, but failed to include an exception for religious beliefs. A bakery in Willamette called Sweet Cakes by Melissa turned down a job catering a lesbian wedding. The owner said he has nothing against gay people, but same-sex marriage is just against his religious beliefs. Any number of bakeries would have taken the job, but the couple filed a discrimination complaint. Now, the bakery has been so put upon, they’ve closed up shop and are becoming a home business. All because the right to same-sex marriage apparently trumps the First Amendment right to freedom of religion. Do we really want to enforce tolerance by being intolerant? Mike Huckabee

OK, I want some clarity.
Did they only want to purchase a cake or was this a catering job?
I could see where someone would not want to leave their place of business and hang out for several hours in an environment that they had no control, with people they didn't trust.