Open carry and die
#1
Even when it's just a toy replica: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Son...27441.html

[Image: andylopez.jpg]

Excerpt: "Two sheriff’s deputies shot and killed a 13-year-old boy carrying a replica assault rifle -- who they say wouldn’t drop it -- prompting outrage and grief in the typically quiet Northern California city of Santa Rosa.

The Sonoma County deputies on patrol saw the boy, identified as Andy Lopez, walking in a blue hoodie with what appeared to be a rifle at 3:14 p.m. Tuesday, Sheriff's Lt. Dennis O'Leary said in a statement. The replica gun resembled an AK-47 with a black magazine cartridge and brown butt, according to a photograph the sheriff released. It did not have the traditionally orange tip of a replica firearm. There is a photo of the fake gun and a real AK47 posted below.

Andy's father, Rodrigo Lopez, said he can't believe his son wouldn't listen to authorities if they asked him to drop the weapon. His son, he said, had a lot of respect for police.

"I sense that he did obey orders," Rodrigo Lopez said.

Other community members also stood behind the boy.

"He was not a gang member, he was an 8th grader," said Anita Ruiz, whose son was friends with the victim. "He was not a criminal, but yet he's dead. He's 13 years old. Couldn't something else have been done?"

Nicole Guerra, another mother whose son was friends with Andy, could barely contain her emotions.

"He's not the kind of boy that would resist," she told NBC Bay Area, wailing and gasping as she tried to articulate her thoughts. "He wanted to go to college and do something with his life. He would not have resisted. No way, no way. He's not that kind of boy."

The sheriff's department outlined the basic facts from the agency's point of view. Two deputies patrolling near Moorland and West Robles avenues in Santa Rosa about 3 p.m. spotted a "male subject" carrying what appeared to be an assault style rifle, similar to an AK-47 assault rifle.

The deputies hit their sirens and called for backup. Then, according to O'Leary, the deputies "repeatedly ordered the subject to drop the rifle."

Initially, officers said the subject’s back was toward them, but as they ordered him to put down the weapon they said he began to turn toward them. The department issued this statement:

"One of the deputies described that as the subject was turning toward him the barrel of the assault rifle was rising up and turning in his direction. The deputy feared for his safety, the safety of his partner, and the safety of the community members in the area. He believed the subject was going to shoot at him or his partner. The deputy described that he is aware an assault weapon of this type is capable of firing a bullet that can penetrate his body armor, the metal exterior of his car, and the walls of the residential houses behind him. The deputy then fired several rounds from his service weapon at the subject, striking him at least one time."

The deputies still commanded Lopez to move away from the rifle, the sheriff's statement read, but at this point, he was "unresponsive." Deputies handcuffed him, administered First Aid and called for medical help.

But it was too late. Andy was pronounced dead at the scene. In addition to learning the rifle wasn't real, the sheriff's department also stated they found a plastic hand gun in his waistband.

As is standard protocol, this officer-involved shooting is being investigated by the Santa Rosa and Petaluma police departments, and the District Attorney’s Office. The Sonoma County deputies who were involved in this incident have been placed on administrative leave, which is routine for such events.

Residents on Wednesday night held a protest in response to the killing and demanded justice for the Cruz family. Neighbors also paid their respects a growing memorial of flowers, photos, candles and stuff animals near where the boy was fatally shot.

Santa Rosa is about 55 miles north of San Francisco and better known, like other cities in the North Bay, for its wineries. This year, Santa Rosa was ranked among the Top 10 "happiest cities" in the United States. Andy's death marks the third fatal officer-involved shooting in Sonoma County this year. He had attended Lawrence Cook Middle School, where Assistant Principal Linsey Gannon said he was a talented trumpet player.

"He was a handsome young man with many friends and a lovely family," Gannon said. "He will be missed."
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#2
TVguy: How did the cops know the gun was not real. He should have dropped it when the cops told him to.

Cletus: Thanks TVguy, but how do you know what really happened?

TVguy: The cops said what happened and cops can't lie.

Cletus: I think many cops are overzealous and trigger happy.

TVguy: Of course you do because you hate cops.

Cletus: Not really, I just think many people that become cops probably should not be cops.

Insert my responses from last 10 police shooting topics here. I have a busy day planned and cant spare the time to repeat all that stuff I said before. Smiling Have a great day.
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#3
Notice the kid was shot in the back, as he was turning with the rifle in his hands. That's TV's favorite cop shooting scenario. Smiling
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#4
(10-24-2013, 08:10 AM)cletus1 Wrote: TVguy: How did the cops know the gun was not real. He should have dropped it when the cops told him to.

Cletus: Thanks TVguy, but how do you know what really happened?

The REAL TVguy... I don't know what really happened, nor do you or Ponder but nevermind you and Ponder love to assume the cops are wrong


TVguy: The cops said what happened and cops can't lie.

The REAL TVguy... absurd exaggeration


Cletus: I think many cops are overzealous and trigger happy.

TVguy: Of course you do because you hate cops.

The REAL TVguy... I've said the same thing





Cletus: Not really, I just think many people that become cops probably should not be cops.

The REAL TVguy... Yep I've agreed with that sentiment before also



Insert my responses from last 10 police shooting topics here. I have a busy day planned and cant spare the time to repeat all that stuff I said before. Smiling Have a great day.
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#5
Someone tells the kid to drop the gun. Kid (who knows the gun is fake, but doesn't know who is telling him to drop it) turns around to see who it is. Kid gets shot.

That's what it sounds like to me.
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#6
(10-24-2013, 12:10 PM)tvguy Wrote: I don't know what really happened, nor do you or Ponder but nevermind you and Ponder love to assume the cops are wrong

No, no, when cops kill a 13 year old kid for not recognizing a cops nearby siren was for him and he was the one being ordered to drop his weapon when he thought it was just a toy, and they shoot him in the back for it, I always look at it from the cops point of view and I think, I sure am glad he gets to go home to his family tonight, and the streets are a little bit safer.

Never mind that even if this was a real AR-15 and any other circumstances you'd be defending the shit out of this guy and talking about how really what a great hunting rifle they make, and it's perfectly natural for people to be carrying these anywhere, actually.
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#7
(10-24-2013, 08:19 AM)PonderThis Wrote: Notice the kid was shot in the back, as he was turning with the rifle in his hands. That's TV's favorite cop shooting scenario. Smiling

Coming from the IDIOT who expected the Jackson county Sheriff deputies who confronted a cartel pot grower with LOADED shotgun to wait for this criminal to point his gun DIRECTLY at the deputies before they fired.
That's F**KING brilliantLaughingLaughing

The autopsy report showed conclusively that this man was indeed turning just like the deputies both claimed.

Never mind all of the facts. When you are dope swilling malcontent who hates any and all authority the facts don't matter.
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#8
Just like I said. Sounds just like this situation, except this time it was a plastic toy replica in his hands. No cop knows from behind whether someone is carrying a loaded weapon, nor is carrying a loaded weapon a crime.
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#9
(10-24-2013, 12:16 PM)PonderThis Wrote:
(10-24-2013, 12:10 PM)tvguy Wrote: I don't know what really happened, nor do you or Ponder but nevermind you and Ponder love to assume the cops are wrong

No, no, when cops kill a 13 year old kid for not recognizing a cops nearby siren was for him and he was the one being ordered to drop his weapon when he thought it was just a toy, and they shoot him in the back for it, I always look at it from the cops point of view and I think, I sure am glad he gets to go home to his family tonight, and the streets are a little bit safer.

Never mind that even if this was a real AR-15 and any other circumstances you'd be defending the shit out of this guy and talking about how really what a great hunting rifle they make, and it's perfectly natural for people to be carrying these anywhere, actually.

You are babbling, put the bong down and make some sense.

IMO Some idiot kid got shot because police need to protect themselves. Cops can't afford to deal with this kind of thing and not strictly go by their training.
If someone with a rifle refuses to drop it and turns towards the cops then the cops should do exactly what they did.
Maybe this kid committed suicide by cop. Of course you idiots would never consider that. It's too easy to blame the cops.
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#10
(10-24-2013, 12:22 PM)PonderThis Wrote: Just like I said. Sounds just like this situation, except this time it was a plastic toy replica in his hands. No cop knows from behind whether someone is carrying a loaded weapon, nor is carrying a loaded weapon a crime.

WTF are you babbling about? The right to open carry doesn't have anything to do with either one of these cases where someone with a weapon (real or replica) turned towards the police.
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#11
Shoot 'em in the back, that's what I always say.
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#12
(10-24-2013, 12:27 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(10-24-2013, 12:22 PM)PonderThis Wrote: Just like I said. Sounds just like this situation, except this time it was a plastic toy replica in his hands. No cop knows from behind whether someone is carrying a loaded weapon, nor is carrying a loaded weapon a crime.

WTF are you babbling about? The right to open carry doesn't have anything to do with either one of these cases where someone with a weapon (real or replica) turned towards the police.

So if you're carrying a gun, and you hear a voice behind you say "drop the gun!", what's the first thing you do? Do you drop it? Do you turn around to see who it is? Do you say "Identify yourself!" Do you say "Are you a cop?"

What do you do if you're a 13 year old kid carrying a toy, and not a grown man who knows what the protocol is? Do we even know if the cops identified themselves as police officers?

Do you know what my response is when someone from behind tells me to do something? I turn toward them to see who they are.
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#13
(10-24-2013, 12:42 PM)csrowan Wrote:
(10-24-2013, 12:27 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(10-24-2013, 12:22 PM)PonderThis Wrote: Just like I said. Sounds just like this situation, except this time it was a plastic toy replica in his hands. No cop knows from behind whether someone is carrying a loaded weapon, nor is carrying a loaded weapon a crime.

WTF are you babbling about? The right to open carry doesn't have anything to do with either one of these cases where someone with a weapon (real or replica) turned towards the police.

So if you're carrying a gun, and you hear a voice behind you say "drop the gun!", what's the first thing you do? Do you drop it? Do you turn around to see who it is? Do you say "Identify yourself!" Do you say "Are you a cop?"

What do you do if you're a 13 year old kid carrying a toy, and not a grown man who knows what the protocol is? Do we even know if the cops identified themselves as police officers?

Do you know what my response is when someone from behind tells me to do something? I turn toward them to see who they are.

You are just going to leave out the part where the cops hit their sirens and repeatedly ordered the subject to drop the rifle???

Where's the Rowan that normally tries to be objective?

The deputies hit their sirens and called for backup. Then, according to O'Leary, the deputies "repeatedly ordered the subject to drop the rifle."

Initially, officers said the subject’s back was toward them, but as they ordered him to put down the weapon they said he began to turn toward them. The department issued this statement:


Quote: Do we even know if the cops identified themselves as police officers?

No of course we don't 100% for sure but to assume they didn't identify themselves you have to believe both cops are liars. Some here do that by default. I don't.
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#14
As was said by Ponder, the kid would have had no reason to suspect the sirens were for him.

As I said and as Ponder said, the kid knew his gun was fake. If he hears people say "Drop the gun! Drop the gun! Put the gun down! Put the gun on the ground!" and hears sirens, what's a 13 year old kid carrying a fake gun going to do? Is he going to just let go of the gun, or is he going to turn toward the sound and voices to see what's going on? Maybe he's even getting ready to put the gun down as he's turning around.

Repeatedly doesn't mean "We are the police. Would you please put your gun on the ground. You have until the count of ten. One. Two. Three. Four... Sarge, he's not doing it... Five. Six... Sarge, are we really gonna open fire if he doesn't put it down... Seven... Kid, you really ought to put the gun down... Eight... Please, kid, I don't want to shoot you... Nine... C'mon, I'm asking you one last time... Nine and a half... Nine and three quarters... Put the gun down, kid! One last chance... I didn't want to do this.... Ten!"
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#15
(10-24-2013, 01:12 PM)csrowan Wrote: As was said by Ponder, the kid would have had no reason to suspect the sirens were for him.

As I said and as Ponder said, the kid knew his gun was fake. If he hears people say "Drop the gun! Drop the gun! Put the gun down! Put the gun on the ground!" and hears sirens, what's a 13 year old kid carrying a fake gun going to do? Is he going to just let go of the gun, or is he going to turn toward the sound and voices to see what's going on? Maybe he's even getting ready to put the gun down as he's turning around.

Repeatedly doesn't mean "We are the police. Would you please put your gun on the ground. You have until the count of ten. One. Two. Three. Four... Sarge, he's not doing it... Five. Six... Sarge, are we really gonna open fire if he doesn't put it down... Seven... Kid, you really ought to put the gun down... Eight... Please, kid, I don't want to shoot you... Nine... C'mon, I'm asking you one last time... Nine and a half... Nine and three quarters... Put the gun down, kid! One last chance... I didn't want to do this.... Ten!"

You are making a shitload of excuses and assumptions. You can "what if" and "maybe" until the cows come home but the police HAVE to do what is necessary to protect themselves.

Quote:
If he hears people say "Drop the gun! Drop the gun! Put the gun down! Put the gun on the ground!" and hears sirens, what's a 13 year old kid carrying a fake gun going to do?

What's he going to do?? Are 13 year olds in your world all idiots? You seriously are making the case that this 13 year old didn't know who the cops were talking toBlinkBlink Are you nuts?
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#16
I'm not making a shitload of assumptions, I'm asking questions based on the information we have.

The kid was shot as he was turning around. He didn't put down the gun, so he either didn't know it was police, he was in the process of putting it down as he was turning, he was going to put it down after he turned, he thought the police were taking to someone with a real gun and not him with the toy gun, or some other scenario like that.

So tell me, what's a 13 year old carrying a toy gun going to do when he hears sirens and a voice saying "drop the gun"? Apparently, this one turns around and gets shot.
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#17
(10-24-2013, 01:39 PM)csrowan Wrote: I'm not making a shitload of assumptions, I'm asking questions based on the information we have.

The kid was shot as he was turning around. He didn't put down the gun, so he either didn't know it was police, he was in the process of putting it down as he was turning, he was going to put it down after he turned, he thought the police were taking to someone with a real gun and not him with the toy gun, or some other scenario like that.

Yes pretty much Rowan something that that. But I have to ask? So what? Do you think the police when in these kind of situations should just stand there and wait for someone to turn around with what by all intents and purposes is a deadly weapon?

You left out one scenario.. Suicide by cop.





Quote:So tell me, what's a 13 year old carrying a toy gun going to do when he hears sirens and a voice saying "drop the gun"? Apparently, this one turns around and gets shot.

The real question is, what's a cop supposed to do? This isn't the first time the cops have been fooled by replica weapon when someone illegally removed the bright orange barrel tip.
It won't be the last. Police HAVE to be allowed to protect themselves.
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#18
Again, my first instinct on being given a command from someone behind me is to turn around and see who it is. Now maybe, as an adult, if I hear sirens and hear a voice telling me to drop the weapon, I might think about all the stories I've read and drop everything in my hands, raise my empty hands slowly above my head, and THEN turn around. But as a 13 year old kid, that wouldn't even have entered my mind.

So my question is still, what do you do if you're a 13 year old kid carrying a toy and you hear sirens and people shouting "drop the gun"? Does your brain even equate the shouts to "drop the gun" with the toy in your hands? It's a toy, not a gun, right?

Actually, the REAL question is, what can we do that will both allow police to protect themselves, but also reduce the number of innocent people shot by police? Like the man looking for a cigarette in the car parked in his mother's driveway. Or this 13 year old kid with the plastic assault rifle. Or the black man who pulled out his wallet to show police who shot him thinking it was a gun.



The REAL question is, what can we do to get police to quit shooting unarmed black men, and start shooting armed white men. No, really.

Quote:The event spurred subsequent social psychology research. A number of experiments have conducted with both undergraduate volunteers and police officers playing a computer game where they must choose whether to shoot or not to shoot a target who may be white or black, on the basis of whether or not they are armed. Such studies find that participants made slower and less accurate decisions on whether to shoot an unarmed black target than an unarmed white target, and were quicker and more likely to correctly decide to shoot an armed black target than an armed white target. Both black and white participants respond in this manner. No correlations have been found between participant's indicated levels of racial bias, and their performance in the games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Dial...#Aftermath
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#19
(10-24-2013, 12:42 PM)csrowan Wrote: Do we even know if the cops identified themselves as police officers?

Do you know they didn't?

In the past couple of days, haven't there been SEVERAL stories of 8th grade/freshman committing violent crimes?
Ah, it's easier to immediately blame the police instead of waiting for the facts to come out. More fun this way.

Fuck the police. They're all assholes. Until I need one.Rolling Eyes
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#20
(10-24-2013, 03:56 PM)BeerMe Wrote:
(10-24-2013, 12:42 PM)csrowan Wrote: Do we even know if the cops identified themselves as police officers?

Do you know they didn't?

In the past couple of days, haven't there been SEVERAL stories of 8th grade/freshman committing violent crimes?
Ah, it's easier to immediately blame the police instead of waiting for the facts to come out. More fun this way.

Fuck the police. They're all assholes. Until I need one.Rolling Eyes

If you will notice, I haven't blamed anyone. I didn't say the police didn't identify themselves. I asked a question because I didn't know the answer.

It would be nice, if once, these stories gave a rough transcript. I'd like to know if it was more like "Hey, you, drop the gun! I said drop it!" or more like "You in the blue hoodie! Freeze! Police! Now, slowly put down the gun!"
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