The post birth abortion debate has started

[tvguy]

I see the point Scrapper, but wonder if that's really fair.

People who really believe life starts at conception are responding to a genuine belief (emotion?) that should be respected. The science is still murky, and even when one dismisses the religious overtones it is something to seriously consider. In a perfect world we would hope abortions would be unnecessary.

And it's true that when that life is allowed to come into this imperfect world we (the entire society) should make sure that all the young are given the basic needs children require.

We should be able to embrace both concepts. Feed the little ones and protect them during childhood or accept that there are times when stopping the growing of that seed is the humane and right thing to do.

Not easy, this stuff.

Yeah it's easy and it's simple to me . I don't need science to tell me whether or not a fertilized egg or Zygote that is the size of the head of a pin is a "life" or is GOING to be a life.
If I'm going to build a table then a nail I will use is just a nail. It's not a table. It's just part of what WILL BE a table.



I don't think it's scientific question anyway. I thing it's ethical question and it should never be left to the religious or to politics or to a government to decide on a women's behalf.

[Wonky]

I see the point Scrapper, but wonder if that's really fair.

People who really believe life starts at conception are responding to a genuine belief (emotion?) that should be respected. The science is still murky, and even when one dismisses the religious overtones it is something to seriously consider. In a perfect world we would hope abortions would be unnecessary.

And it's true that when that life is allowed to come into this imperfect world we (the entire society) should make sure that all the young are given the basic needs children require.

We should be able to embrace both concepts. Feed the little ones and protect them during childhood or accept that there are times when stopping the growing of that seed is the humane and right thing to do.

Not easy, this stuff.

Yeah it's easy and it's simple to me . I don't need science to tell me whether or not a fertilized egg or Zygote that is the size of the head of a pin is a "life" or is GOING to be a life.
If I'm going to build a table then a nail I will use is just a nail. It's not a table. It's just part of what WILL BE a table.



I don't think it's scientific question anyway. I thing it's ethical question and it should never be left to the religious or to politics or to a government to decide on a women's behalf.

I've said before TVg how much I admire you, but never how much I envy you. Your life is simple. Black/white, right/wrong, and the hell with details.
Our kind of guy.

[chuck white]

I believe human life begins at conception. (limited to a conception of a human sperm and a human egg)

I also believe in abortion. (I don't believe in the sanctity of human life)

I also don't think we should criminally prosecute a woman who kills here offspring within a year of their birth. (Mental illness in a woman who has hormonal conditions, is not a crime). Yes, they should receive medical help. This happens a lot, not only in the human species.

I don't believe the father has any say. If he has issues, they our in his head, get over it.

I believe men and woman should be able to profit from their abilities to reproduce. They should be allowed to sell their services. Including the registered transfer of children to adoptive parents for any price negotiated between the two parties. (This would stop a lot of abortions by healthy woman, carrying healthy babies)

[Smithcat]

“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”[/i]

? Hélder Câmara

But what is the reason the 'poor' have no food? Is it because they have spent all their money on other things first?

Is this the reason they are 'poor' and have no food?

Most often when we are shopping near the beginning of the month, we see the 'poor' using their OT SNAP benefits section of the card to buy junk food, sodas, and other non-nutritional items. Their cart is also piled high with beer, cigarettes, video games, DVD's, and other non-essentials, which they use their OT Cash benefits section of the card for. Then they are talking on their smart phones while they go out to the parking lot to their newer SUV with the tinted windows, 20 inch rims, and killer stereo and DVD entertainment system, load their goods inside, and drive 'home' to their subsidized housing apartment, where they unload their goods, spark up their 5th cig of the day, grab their second bottle of beer, and then head off to the local tattoo parlor for their appointment for their next $200 tattoo.

Then in the middle of the month, we see these same individuals at the food bank, the St. Vincent DePaul kitchen, UCAN, the Salvation Army, and other charities begging for food and money because they somehow ran out of food (with the averagefamily benefit of around $400/mo) and cant seem to pay for their utilities because they have no more money.

The only thing 'poor' about these individuals is their life choices, and all the rest of us who work for a living are having to pay the consequences, both monetarily and as a society, for their 'poor' choices.

I believe in offering a hand up, not a hand out. That is why we volunteer our time to various charitable organizations and non-profits, which is our way of 'giving back' a little for the times we needed help ourselves. We have had to use SNAP in the past, but we were sensible enough to make sure it lasted all month, and kept our purchases to what was really needed, with the rare splurge of some ice cream or a store-baked cake for special occasions. As soon as we were able, we went off SNAP and used the experience to try and never need it again.

But todays 'poor' are mostly that way because of their chosen lifestyle, not because of a disability or other hardship. They are the 3rd and 4th generational 'poor' who have no drive or ambition, because the state provides for them; subsidized housing, cash and food benefits, LIRA, and other programs that teach them that they do not have to save money, be wise in spending what they do have, or to be held accountable for the spending of what money is given to them (which was taken away from someone else in the form of taxes).

That is why there is such resentment of todays 'poor' who 'have no food'.

[Scrapper]

[chuck white]

“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”[/i]

? Hélder Câmara

But what is the reason the 'poor' have no food? Is it because they have spent all their money on other things first?

Is this the reason they are 'poor' and have no food?

Most often when we are shopping near the beginning of the month, we see the 'poor' using their OT SNAP benefits section of the card to buy junk food, sodas, and other non-nutritional items. Their cart is also piled high with beer, cigarettes, video games, DVD's, and other non-essentials, which they use their OT Cash benefits section of the card for. Then they are talking on their smart phones while they go out to the parking lot to their newer SUV with the tinted windows, 20 inch rims, and killer stereo and DVD entertainment system, load their goods inside, and drive 'home' to their subsidized housing apartment, where they unload their goods, spark up their 5th cig of the day, grab their second bottle of beer, and then head off to the local tattoo parlor for their appointment for their next $200 tattoo.

Then in the middle of the month, we see these same individuals at the food bank, the St. Vincent DePaul kitchen, UCAN, the Salvation Army, and other charities begging for food and money because they somehow ran out of food (with the averagefamily benefit of around $400/mo) and cant seem to pay for their utilities because they have no more money.

The only thing 'poor' about these individuals is their life choices, and all the rest of us who work for a living are having to pay the consequences, both monetarily and as a society, for their 'poor' choices.

I believe in offering a hand up, not a hand out. That is why we volunteer our time to various charitable organizations and non-profits, which is our way of 'giving back' a little for the times we needed help ourselves. We have had to use SNAP in the past, but we were sensible enough to make sure it lasted all month, and kept our purchases to what was really needed, with the rare splurge of some ice cream or a store-baked cake for special occasions. As soon as we were able, we went off SNAP and used the experience to try and never need it again.

But todays 'poor' are mostly that way because of their chosen lifestyle, not because of a disability or other hardship. They are the 3rd and 4th generational 'poor' who have no drive or ambition, because the state provides for them; subsidized housing, cash and food benefits, LIRA, and other programs that teach them that they do not have to save money, be wise in spending what they do have, or to be held accountable for the spending of what money is given to them (which was taken away from someone else in the form of taxes).

That is why there is such resentment of todays 'poor' who 'have no food'.

Maybe they should sell their children for medical experiments.

[Tiamat]

Not an argument but an opinion. I find that the fervor given to this topic by conservatives seems to be an ad hoc - ish attach on liberals in reality. More about intent than content if that makes any sense.

[Cuzz]

But what is the reason the 'poor' have no food? Is it because they have spent all their money on other things first?

I keep reading that to make some sense out of it, but I can't. Asinine.

[cletus1]

But what is the reason the 'poor' have no food? Is it because they have spent all their money on other things first?

I keep reading that to make some sense out of it, but I can't. Asinine.

I have dissected the statement and I concur with you professor Cuzz.

They have very little money to spend on other things first or last. That is why we call them poor. Also, they would not have qualified for SNAP if they had enough money to pay for food, rent, utilities, gasoline, medicine, health care insurance, car insurance etc. The working poor are poor for one reason, they don't make enough money. Many of the conservatives that criticize the poor are also against raising the minimum wage. Go figure.

[Tiamat]

But what is the reason the 'poor' have no food? Is it because they have spent all their money on other things first?

I keep reading that to make some sense out of it, but I can't. Asinine.

I have dissected the statement and I concur with you professor Cuzz.

They have very little money to spend on other things first or last. That is why we call them poor. Also, they would not have qualified for SNAP if they had enough money to pay for food, rent, utilities, gasoline, medicine, health care insurance, car insurance etc. The working poor are poor for one reason, they don't make enough money. Many of the conservatives that criticize the poor are also against raising the minimum wage. Go figure.

Or freezing/lowering student loan rates. Go figure. The bottom line is that the Haves do not want the Have not's to have what the Haves have. However, the Haves need the Have nots in order for the Haves to feel sanctimonious about what the Haves have. Feel free to HAVE AT THAT.

[Scrapper]

But what is the reason the 'poor' have no food? Is it because they have spent all their money on other things first?

I keep reading that to make some sense out of it, but I can't. Asinine.

I have dissected the statement and I concur with you professor Cuzz.

They have very little money to spend on other things first or last. That is why we call them poor. Also, they would not have qualified for SNAP if they had enough money to pay for food, rent, utilities, gasoline, medicine, health care insurance, car insurance etc. The working poor are poor for one reason, they don't make enough money. Many of the conservatives that criticize the poor are also against raising the minimum wage. Go figure.

Or freezing/lowering student loan rates. Go figure. The bottom line is that the Haves do not want the Have not's to have what the Haves have. However, the Haves need the Have nots in order for the Haves to feel sanctimonious about what the Haves have. Feel free to HAVE AT THAT.

[chuck white]

What would a have not have, if a have not, could have what a have, have not.

[bbqboy]

Wood?

[chuck white]

Wood?

What wood a half knot half, if a half knot, could half what a half, half knot.

[SFLiberal]

I believe human life begins at conception. (limited to a conception of a human sperm and a human egg)

I also believe in abortion. (I don't believe in the sanctity of human life)

I also don't think we should criminally prosecute a woman who kills here offspring within a year of their birth. (Mental illness in a woman who has hormonal conditions, is not a crime). Yes, they should receive medical help. This happens a lot, not only in the human species.

I don't believe the father has any say. If he has issues, they our in his head, get over it.

I believe men and woman should be able to profit from their abilities to reproduce. They should be allowed to sell their services. Including the registered transfer of children to adoptive parents for any price negotiated between the two parties. (This would stop a lot of abortions by healthy woman, carrying healthy babies)

You really are one sick individual.

[syn4xe]

You really are one sick individual.

This might help out.

[Scrapper]

You really are one sick individual.

This might help out.

BwaHaHaHa!

[Tiamat]

What would a have not have, if a have not, could have what a have, have not.

I said that.

[chuck white]

I believe human life begins at conception. (limited to a conception of a human sperm and a human egg)

I also believe in abortion. (I don't believe in the sanctity of human life)

I also don't think we should criminally prosecute a woman who kills here offspring within a year of their birth. (Mental illness in a woman who has hormonal conditions, is not a crime). Yes, they should receive medical help. This happens a lot, not only in the human species.

I don't believe the father has any say. If he has issues, they our in his head, get over it.

I believe men and woman should be able to profit from their abilities to reproduce. They should be allowed to sell their services. Including the registered transfer of children to adoptive parents for any price negotiated between the two parties. (This would stop a lot of abortions by healthy woman, carrying healthy babies)

You really are one sick individual.

Comes with being, 'All Knowing'