Remembering MLK
#21
(01-21-2015, 12:03 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:56 AM)tvguy Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:12 AM)solomon Wrote: I read about this experiment today. Seems relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Rat Park was a study into drug addiction conducted in the late 1970s (and published in 1980) by Canadian psychologist Bruce K. Alexander and his colleagues at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada.

Alexander's hypothesis was that drugs do not cause addiction, and that the apparent addiction to opiate drugs commonly observed in laboratory rats exposed to it is attributable to their living conditions, and not to any addictive property of the drug itself. He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that prior experiments in which laboratory rats were kept isolated in cramped metal cages, tethered to a self-injection apparatus, show only that "severely distressed animals, like severely distressed people, will relieve their distress pharmacologically if they can.

Rats who had been forced to consume morphine hydrochloride for 57 consecutive days were brought to Rat Park and given a choice between plain tap water and water laced with morphine. For the most part, they chose the plain water. "Nothing that we tried," Alexander wrote, "... produced anything that looked like addiction in rats that were housed in a reasonably normal environment." Control groups of rats isolated in small cages consumed much more morphine in this and several subsequent experiments.

Well there are a hell of a lot of drug addicted meth heads who live in Rural America.. the "heartland" who pretty much blow holes in your theory.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074

Soloman, I've provided the link, I'll leave it up to you to wax eloquent.

So, I guess Solomon is AWOL.

Back to you TVg. You want to respond to this? It's at least some data compare to your opinion that doesn't seem to come from any source other than your personal feelings.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074
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#22
So here is the deal. I have a varied and sometimes hectic life. Right now I am sitting by the fire, rejuvenating. I have a rough weekend coming up. So this is when I post. Infrequently sometimes. Catfish?

A socio-economic cage is still a cage. Rural america is no different, rich and poor alike can be caged by their own upbringing. Furthermore, I believe Oprah was in Europe recently and was treated like a common nggr and ushered out of a store. There is a pretty obvious bar in the cage, eh? The only reason that dont hapeen here is she be known by the white folk. Truth.

Truth is, MLK fought for black rights then that no citizen of any color will enjoy soon enough. To properly remember Dr. King we would have to recognize our growing economic disparity and eroding civil liberties.
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#23
(01-22-2015, 08:36 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 12:03 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:56 AM)tvguy Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:12 AM)solomon Wrote: I read about this experiment today. Seems relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Rat Park was a study into drug addiction conducted in the late 1970s (and published in 1980) by Canadian psychologist Bruce K. Alexander and his colleagues at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada.

Alexander's hypothesis was that drugs do not cause addiction, and that the apparent addiction to opiate drugs commonly observed in laboratory rats exposed to it is attributable to their living conditions, and not to any addictive property of the drug itself. He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that prior experiments in which laboratory rats were kept isolated in cramped metal cages, tethered to a self-injection apparatus, show only that "severely distressed animals, like severely distressed people, will relieve their distress pharmacologically if they can.

Rats who had been forced to consume morphine hydrochloride for 57 consecutive days were brought to Rat Park and given a choice between plain tap water and water laced with morphine. For the most part, they chose the plain water. "Nothing that we tried," Alexander wrote, "... produced anything that looked like addiction in rats that were housed in a reasonably normal environment." Control groups of rats isolated in small cages consumed much more morphine in this and several subsequent experiments.

Well there are a hell of a lot of drug addicted meth heads who live in Rural America.. the "heartland" who pretty much blow holes in your theory.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074

Soloman, I've provided the link, I'll leave it up to you to wax eloquent.

So, I guess Solomon is AWOL.

Back to you TVg. You want to respond to this? It's at least some data compare to your opinion that doesn't seem to come from any source other than your personal feelings.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074

...but still hoping TVg will want to respond to this.
Reply
#24
(01-21-2015, 10:08 PM)Tiamat Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:54 AM)tvguy Wrote: [quote='Tiamat' pid='352173' dateline='1421856877']
Oh, God, I hate to ask but can't resist.....TVguy, this a conversation we've had on this forum many times before. I always have to poke and prod you to be more articulate on this passionate viewpoint of yours. So, please, enlighten us. If it's not poverty that creates the crime, what is it? Some innate nature in people of African lineage? You seem to feel that there is a unique and specific phenomenon . Can you please describe what that is specifically, and also what you feel would/could/should be done to address it? Exactly what is your point?

OK Tia if poverty is the reason blacks who are only 13% of our population commit so much crime. Then why don't the 10% of Americans who are poor or 20 million whites in poverty. Stuff our prisons and jails the way blacks do?

There are 45 million blacks in this country. If 28% are living in poverty then that means there are about 12 million poor blacks.

Approximately 12%-13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 40% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison (U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).


If there is NOT a unique and specific phenomenon to explain this then what does explain it? It's NOT just poverty.

You want me to explain this? I've said over and over that a big part of it is indeed poverty and despair and the fact that many blacks are living in ghettos.
And I have also said many many times that blacks have a BAD prevailing attitude they carry around.
And IMO it gives them the right to commit crimes or maybe do whatever it is they want to offset the oppression or racism that is both real and perceived.

I have also said many times that we need to have jobs available to ALL blacks even if we have to CREATE jobs that are meaningless.
IMO this would still be cheaper than running so many blacks through our criminal justice system.

Big Rock made a good post about the definition of RESENTMENT that IMO made a LOT of sense in explaining the plight of blacks in this country.

Quote:Well, the attitude thing is a thing we've heard about. Cosby has said as much. Where does this attitude come from? Is it an entitlement attitude? Is there a name for this historical injurious apathy? If so, you could apply it to Native Americans. So, what are you saying it's inherent to the race? To the circumstance?

Where does it come from?? It's called resentment and you know where it comes from.Why does it need a name. And yes of course you could apply it to SOME NA's just like you can apply it to SOME blacks.

Quote:So, what are you saying it's inherent to the race?

I can't even believe you would ask me that I've said about a thousand freaking times it was cultural.. LEARNED.


Quote:And your other point about ghettos. Isn't ghetto just another word for poverty and environmental factors.

Absolutely not. Ghettos , inner city life is way different than simply being poor.
I have friends here in southern Or who are poor. They don't have to worry about being shot, mugged or being forced to join a gang.
Ghetto are cesspools that house some of the worst kind of people. I think a lot of the people who live their don't even know what they are missing. I think they adapt to that way of life. I think a lot of them actually like it.
Reply
#25
(01-22-2015, 10:44 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-22-2015, 08:36 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 12:03 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:56 AM)tvguy Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:12 AM)solomon Wrote: I read about this experiment today. Seems relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Rat Park was a study into drug addiction conducted in the late 1970s (and published in 1980) by Canadian psychologist Bruce K. Alexander and his colleagues at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada.

Alexander's hypothesis was that drugs do not cause addiction, and that the apparent addiction to opiate drugs commonly observed in laboratory rats exposed to it is attributable to their living conditions, and not to any addictive property of the drug itself. He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that prior experiments in which laboratory rats were kept isolated in cramped metal cages, tethered to a self-injection apparatus, show only that "severely distressed animals, like severely distressed people, will relieve their distress pharmacologically if they can.

Rats who had been forced to consume morphine hydrochloride for 57 consecutive days were brought to Rat Park and given a choice between plain tap water and water laced with morphine. For the most part, they chose the plain water. "Nothing that we tried," Alexander wrote, "... produced anything that looked like addiction in rats that were housed in a reasonably normal environment." Control groups of rats isolated in small cages consumed much more morphine in this and several subsequent experiments.

Well there are a hell of a lot of drug addicted meth heads who live in Rural America.. the "heartland" who pretty much blow holes in your theory.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074

Soloman, I've provided the link, I'll leave it up to you to wax eloquent.

So, I guess Solomon is AWOL.

Back to you TVg. You want to respond to this? It's at least some data compare to your opinion that doesn't seem to come from any source other than your personal feelings.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074

...but still hoping TVg will want to respond to this.

I'm not understanding what you think I would have to say? It was ME trying to convince YOU that Meth use what not tied to poverty like you were saying.
Reply
#26
(01-22-2015, 12:43 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(01-22-2015, 10:44 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-22-2015, 08:36 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 12:03 PM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:56 AM)tvguy Wrote: Well there are a hell of a lot of drug addicted meth heads who live in Rural America.. the "heartland" who pretty much blow holes in your theory.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074

Soloman, I've provided the link, I'll leave it up to you to wax eloquent.

So, I guess Solomon is AWOL.

Back to you TVg. You want to respond to this? It's at least some data compare to your opinion that doesn't seem to come from any source other than your personal feelings.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...Id=3805074

...but still hoping TVg will want to respond to this.

I'm not understanding what you think I would have to say? It was ME trying to convince YOU that Meth use what not tied to poverty like you were saying.

Holy crapola.
I REALLY must learn to read. I read your post above as suggesting meth use was a problem in the CITIES and NOT rural America.
Sorry.
I've called the school district to see if I can get into a 3rd grade reading class. Embarrassed
Reply
#27
(01-22-2015, 12:33 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 10:08 PM)Tiamat Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:54 AM)tvguy Wrote: [quote='Tiamat' pid='352173' dateline='1421856877']
Oh, God, I hate to ask but can't resist.....TVguy, this a conversation we've had on this forum many times before. I always have to poke and prod you to be more articulate on this passionate viewpoint of yours. So, please, enlighten us. If it's not poverty that creates the crime, what is it? Some innate nature in people of African lineage? You seem to feel that there is a unique and specific phenomenon . Can you please describe what that is specifically, and also what you feel would/could/should be done to address it? Exactly what is your point?

OK Tia if poverty is the reason blacks who are only 13% of our population commit so much crime. Then why don't the 10% of Americans who are poor or 20 million whites in poverty. Stuff our prisons and jails the way blacks do?

There are 45 million blacks in this country. If 28% are living in poverty then that means there are about 12 million poor blacks.

Approximately 12%-13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 40% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison (U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).


If there is NOT a unique and specific phenomenon to explain this then what does explain it? It's NOT just poverty.

You want me to explain this? I've said over and over that a big part of it is indeed poverty and despair and the fact that many blacks are living in ghettos.
And I have also said many many times that blacks have a BAD prevailing attitude they carry around.
And IMO it gives them the right to commit crimes or maybe do whatever it is they want to offset the oppression or racism that is both real and perceived.

I have also said many times that we need to have jobs available to ALL blacks even if we have to CREATE jobs that are meaningless.
IMO this would still be cheaper than running so many blacks through our criminal justice system.

Big Rock made a good post about the definition of RESENTMENT that IMO made a LOT of sense in explaining the plight of blacks in this country.

Quote:Well, the attitude thing is a thing we've heard about. Cosby has said as much. Where does this attitude come from? Is it an entitlement attitude? Is there a name for this historical injurious apathy? If so, you could apply it to Native Americans. So, what are you saying it's inherent to the race? To the circumstance?

Where does it come from?? It's called resentment and you know where it comes from.Why does it need a name. And yes of course you could apply it to SOME NA's just like you can apply it to SOME blacks.

Quote:So, what are you saying it's inherent to the race?

I can't even believe you would ask me that I've said about a thousand freaking times it was cultural.. LEARNED.


Quote:And your other point about ghettos. Isn't ghetto just another word for poverty and environmental factors.

Absolutely not. Ghettos , inner city life is way different than simply being poor.
I have friends here in southern Or who are poor. They don't have to worry about being shot, mugged or being forced to join a gang.
Ghetto are cesspools that house some of the worst kind of people. I think a lot of the people who live their don't even know what they are missing. I think they adapt to that way of life. I think a lot of them actually like it.

You know I'm just getting you to articulate more clearly, right? We've had this conversation lots of times.
Reply
#28
(01-22-2015, 10:49 PM)Tiamat Wrote:
(01-22-2015, 12:33 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 10:08 PM)Tiamat Wrote:
(01-21-2015, 11:54 AM)tvguy Wrote: [quote='Tiamat' pid='352173' dateline='1421856877']
Oh, God, I hate to ask but can't resist.....TVguy, this a conversation we've had on this forum many times before. I always have to poke and prod you to be more articulate on this passionate viewpoint of yours. So, please, enlighten us. If it's not poverty that creates the crime, what is it? Some innate nature in people of African lineage? You seem to feel that there is a unique and specific phenomenon . Can you please describe what that is specifically, and also what you feel would/could/should be done to address it? Exactly what is your point?

OK Tia if poverty is the reason blacks who are only 13% of our population commit so much crime. Then why don't the 10% of Americans who are poor or 20 million whites in poverty. Stuff our prisons and jails the way blacks do?

There are 45 million blacks in this country. If 28% are living in poverty then that means there are about 12 million poor blacks.

Approximately 12%-13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 40% of the almost 2.1 million male inmates in jail or prison (U.S. Department of Justice, 2009).


If there is NOT a unique and specific phenomenon to explain this then what does explain it? It's NOT just poverty.

You want me to explain this? I've said over and over that a big part of it is indeed poverty and despair and the fact that many blacks are living in ghettos.
And I have also said many many times that blacks have a BAD prevailing attitude they carry around.
And IMO it gives them the right to commit crimes or maybe do whatever it is they want to offset the oppression or racism that is both real and perceived.

I have also said many times that we need to have jobs available to ALL blacks even if we have to CREATE jobs that are meaningless.
IMO this would still be cheaper than running so many blacks through our criminal justice system.

Big Rock made a good post about the definition of RESENTMENT that IMO made a LOT of sense in explaining the plight of blacks in this country.

Quote:Well, the attitude thing is a thing we've heard about. Cosby has said as much. Where does this attitude come from? Is it an entitlement attitude? Is there a name for this historical injurious apathy? If so, you could apply it to Native Americans. So, what are you saying it's inherent to the race? To the circumstance?

Where does it come from?? It's called resentment and you know where it comes from.Why does it need a name. And yes of course you could apply it to SOME NA's just like you can apply it to SOME blacks.

Quote:So, what are you saying it's inherent to the race?

I can't even believe you would ask me that I've said about a thousand freaking times it was cultural.. LEARNED.


Quote:And your other point about ghettos. Isn't ghetto just another word for poverty and environmental factors.

Absolutely not. Ghettos , inner city life is way different than simply being poor.
I have friends here in southern Or who are poor. They don't have to worry about being shot, mugged or being forced to join a gang.
Ghetto are cesspools that house some of the worst kind of people. I think a lot of the people who live their don't even know what they are missing. I think they adapt to that way of life. I think a lot of them actually like it.

You know I'm just getting you to articulate more clearly, right? We've had this conversation lots of times.

Smiling Maybe I'm worried your memory is getting as bad as mine.
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#29
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