Does EVERYONE need to go to college?
#1
Our social and political leaders tell us that if our young people don't go to college or university they are doomed. 

well wait one cotton pickin' minute. 

People who are willing to work with their hands, learn basic math and language skills, and be willing to show up for work on time, each day, and be willing to work, can make a "living wage". 

This snippet from todays (8/28) Mail Tribune. 

MEDFORD 

POLICE, FIRE STATIONS’ COSTS JUMP
[b] 

$6 MILLION
[/b]
 

Subcontractor expenses have skyrocketed, officials say




By Damian Mann
 

Mail Tribune

N
ew police and fire stations are a staggering $6 million over budget because of an overheated subcontractor market, the Medford City Council was told Thursday.

“Nobody saw this coming,” said David Wilkerson of ORW Architecture, the architect for the projects. “The severity and quickness of this upturn is unprecedented.”

Higher costs for plumbers and masonry workers have helped push up the price tag of the new police station, which is currently under construction,
 by almost $1.67 million. A proposed faade to improve the look of the police parking garage has added more than $900,000, boosting the police station total to nearly $2.6 million over budget.

The three new fire stations are $3.39 million over budget.

If the council decides against adding the improved faade for the police parking garage, the city still would be looking
 at a $5 million shortfall.

Faced with the higher costs, the city is considering borrowing money to pay for the projects, which were budgeted at $32.7 million in 2012. The new budget for the police and fire stations is just short of $38 million, with almost $24 million for the police station, not including the police garage faade, and $14 million
 for the fire stations.

Councilors will hold another study session at 6:15 p.m. Thursday, Sept. 3, to consider their options.

“The good news is everybody’s employed,' Wilkerson said. 'It’s good for Medford, but not good for this project.'
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#2
Huh, learned a new word.

Regarding college/university, If you define that as formal education after high school, I'd say yes it is necessary for most. But that could and should include community collage, trade schools and the like. The for profit schools I think are less desirable as their history hasn't been particularly respectable. Apprenticeships used to be effective but the unions that have commonly been administering them are being stomped into the ground. 
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#3
(08-28-2015, 09:47 AM)Cuzz Wrote: Huh, learned a new word.

Regarding college/university, If you define that as formal education after high school, I'd say yes it is necessary for most. But that could and should include community collage, trade schools and the like. The for profit schools I think are less desirable as their history hasn't been particularly respectable. Apprenticeships used to be effective but the unions that have commonly been administering them are being stomped into the ground. 

I agree with that.  The majority of kids straight out of High School don't have the education or skills needed to fully support themselves, much less a family.
Reply
#4
(08-28-2015, 09:58 AM)Scrapper Wrote:
(08-28-2015, 09:47 AM)Cuzz Wrote: Huh, learned a new word.

Regarding college/university, If you define that as formal education after high school, I'd say yes it is necessary for most. But that could and should include community collage, trade schools and the like. The for profit schools I think are less desirable as their history hasn't been particularly respectable. Apprenticeships used to be effective but the unions that have commonly been administering them are being stomped into the ground. 

I agree with that.  The majority of kids straight out of High School don't have the education or skills needed to fully support themselves, much less a family.
Scrapper, as a general rule I'd agree. But I personally have know some guys who while good high school students simply were not interested in the "intellectual life". They often went to work in construction of some type, or one of the trades, etc, and showed up everyday on time, did good work, and let it be known they wanted to gain skills. Most of those guys who demonstrated those attitudes went on to make very good livings, and a lot of them became contractors and did VERY well. 
Still...I like your view here: My own "perfect situation" for folks who don't want to go to a four year college would be that they do a stint in community college and take the basic required liberal arts courses. It just makes them better citizens and people. But, many can't afford to spend those two years without flipping burgers while going to school, so they elect to go straight to the job. And many of these type manage to read and to degree self educate.  
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#5
...so what are you bitching about? You solved your problem lickety split.
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#6
When they say "everyone" they aren't even considering anything other than the professional class. Period. But even mid level jobs are beginning to require some kind of degree. I remember when I was going to school for my AA the entire corrective justice system was going also. It was a requirement that all the people in Jackson County Corrections get a minimum AA degree in criminal justice or similar.  It ties into funding. I know that I've been edged out of the market. Experience means little next to the Bachelor or higher degree regardless of expertise. Police, fire fighters, many different "blue collar" jobs are pushing or highly encouraging their workforce to get degrees, even if just AA's in related fields.
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#7
Maybe because I grew up in a family of teachers, and then married a nice Jewish girl from Omaha, the idea of intentionally 
staying dumb is just a completely foreign idea We made sure our kids studied, and it paid off. 
  I guess I don't understand the concept of not obtaining knowledge.
Reply
#8
(08-28-2015, 06:47 PM)Tiamat Wrote: When they say "everyone" they aren't even considering anything other than the professional class. Period. But even mid level jobs are beginning to require some kind of degree. I remember when I was going to school for my AA the entire corrective justice system was going also. It was a requirement that all the people in Jackson County Corrections get a minimum AA degree in criminal justice or similar.  It ties into funding. I know that I've been edged out of the market. Experience means little next to the Bachelor or higher degree regardless of expertise. Police, fire fighters, many different "blue collar" jobs are pushing or highly encouraging their workforce to get degrees, even if just AA's in related fields.

I take you point, and it's a good one. But you are (I think) talking about those on a "career path". In my post I was thinking about those (maybe the few) who simply want to work in what we used to call "the trades" and have little intellectual curiosity and don't feel the tug for formal schooling. Remember, "Topic" started with a news story about construction sites in Medford that could not find sub-contractors to complete work because they didn't have enough skilled labor for the necessary manpower. 
Back in the day, the Unions had apprentice programs to train workers. Now, things have changed (not for the better in my opinion) but a lot of contractors will take on guys (mostly) who simply show good work habits and with "on the job training" teach them necessary skills. I personally know some guys who have gone this route and have done really well (making good wages) without schooling beyond 12th grade. (I know of a couple who "hit the books" to learn some math so they could do the work required) 

But in the best of all possible worlds I'd want most to go on to at least a couple of years of school past high school. Not just to "gain skills" but for the advantage of learning that education is a life long endeavor and continue to read and study is it's own reward. 
An example: 

  1. The Swerve: How the World Became Modern is a book by Stephen Greenblatt and winner of the 2012 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction and 2011 National Book Award for Nonfiction. Wikipedia


  2. Published: September 19, 2011

  3. AuthorStephen Greenblatt

  4. Page count: 356
This will do nothing to provide "skills" for the job, but will broaden anyone's understanding of how we arrived at where we are now. 
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#9
To answer the question, of course not, but like Tia said, many professions require some formal education these days. I obtained a 2 year AAS degree in Water and Wastewater Technology and it served me well. I still attend training seminars to earn CEUs required to maintain my certification. There are other professions that require formal training as well. 

Did you know that the Eugene Water Electric Board (EWEB) won't hire anyone without a Bachelor's degree? It does not matter what your major was either. They just want educated employees. Still, I think many people find great jobs without college or the huge debt that often comes from attending a 4 year university. So like everything else, it depends on what you plan to do for work. 

I know a few people with degrees that work as waiters. Not because they can't find a job in their field. They just make more money as waiters in the upscale restaurants where they work. So there ya have it.  Smiling
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#10
(08-29-2015, 08:56 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-28-2015, 06:47 PM)Tiamat Wrote: When they say "everyone" they aren't even considering anything other than the professional class. Period. But even mid level jobs are beginning to require some kind of degree. I remember when I was going to school for my AA the entire corrective justice system was going also. It was a requirement that all the people in Jackson County Corrections get a minimum AA degree in criminal justice or similar.  It ties into funding. I know that I've been edged out of the market. Experience means little next to the Bachelor or higher degree regardless of expertise. Police, fire fighters, many different "blue collar" jobs are pushing or highly encouraging their workforce to get degrees, even if just AA's in related fields.

I take you point, and it's a good one. But you are (I think) talking about those on a "career path". In my post I was thinking about those (maybe the few) who simply want to work in what we used to call "the trades" and have little intellectual curiosity and don't feel the tug for formal schooling. Remember, "Topic" started with a news story about construction sites in Medford that could not find sub-contractors to complete work because they didn't have enough skilled labor for the necessary manpower. 
Back in the day, the Unions had apprentice programs to train workers. Now, things have changed (not for the better in my opinion) but a lot of contractors will take on guys (mostly) who simply show good work habits and with "on the job training" teach them necessary skills. I personally know some guys who have gone this route and have done really well (making good wages) without schooling beyond 12th grade. (I know of a couple who "hit the books" to learn some math so they could do the work required) 

But in the best of all possible worlds I'd want most to go on to at least a couple of years of school past high school. Not just to "gain skills" but for the advantage of learning that education is a life long endeavor and continue to read and study is it's own reward. 
An example: 


  1. The Swerve: How the World Became Modern is a book by Stephen Greenblatt and winner of the 2012 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction and 2011 National Book Award for Nonfiction. Wikipedia


  2. Published: September 19, 2011

  3. AuthorStephen Greenblatt

  4. Page count: 356
This will do nothing to provide "skills" for the job, but will broaden anyone's understanding of how we arrived at where we are now. 

I don't think I was talking about career paths at all. That's my point.  Do you think those workers at the jail were on a "career path"?  Hell no. They were low skilled workers who worked for the City and County and State. It was their job. It was their employers who required them to upgrade and get AA degrees.  Do you really think they learned anything from those classes. Well, I didn't take them, but I can assure you they probably learned very little. I was very well trained in my job, but was required to take classes.  And learned nothing from them. Degree over experience.  RCC has several programs towards "fire technology" and criminal and law enforcement fields. The way Community colleges work is that they create programs that are needed/required by the community. So, for instance they don't seem to have a program to study mining, but they do have programs for forestry.  It's pretty silly because most if not all of the knowledge can be imparted by training but it ties into funding so it ends up being required.  But not just AA level. That's what  happened to me. I got the AA and now they want Bachelors or Masters degrees. It doesn't end. If workers can find entry level jobs that train them keep them trained within their industry and programs more power to them, but that's not the trend.  You get into these professions and at a certain level, your ascension stops and  your are told to go get schooling. This is the cost of staying competitive and keeping their edge in the market. Cletus's story is the same as mine. It becomes a self feeding monster and creates a lot of waste. Wasted time, money, funding.  I've seen a lot of that.
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#11
(08-29-2015, 09:49 AM)Tiamat Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 08:56 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-28-2015, 06:47 PM)Tiamat Wrote: When they say "everyone" they aren't even considering anything other than the professional class. Period. But even mid level jobs are beginning to require some kind of degree. I remember when I was going to school for my AA the entire corrective justice system was going also. It was a requirement that all the people in Jackson County Corrections get a minimum AA degree in criminal justice or similar.  It ties into funding. I know that I've been edged out of the market. Experience means little next to the Bachelor or higher degree regardless of expertise. Police, fire fighters, many different "blue collar" jobs are pushing or highly encouraging their workforce to get degrees, even if just AA's in related fields.

I take you point, and it's a good one. But you are (I think) talking about those on a "career path". In my post I was thinking about those (maybe the few) who simply want to work in what we used to call "the trades" and have little intellectual curiosity and don't feel the tug for formal schooling. Remember, "Topic" started with a news story about construction sites in Medford that could not find sub-contractors to complete work because they didn't have enough skilled labor for the necessary manpower. 
Back in the day, the Unions had apprentice programs to train workers. Now, things have changed (not for the better in my opinion) but a lot of contractors will take on guys (mostly) who simply show good work habits and with "on the job training" teach them necessary skills. I personally know some guys who have gone this route and have done really well (making good wages) without schooling beyond 12th grade. (I know of a couple who "hit the books" to learn some math so they could do the work required) 

But in the best of all possible worlds I'd want most to go on to at least a couple of years of school past high school. Not just to "gain skills" but for the advantage of learning that education is a life long endeavor and continue to read and study is it's own reward. 
An example: 



  1. The Swerve: How the World Became Modern is a book by Stephen Greenblatt and winner of the 2012 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction and 2011 National Book Award for Nonfiction. Wikipedia


  2. Published: September 19, 2011

  3. AuthorStephen Greenblatt

  4. Page count: 356
This will do nothing to provide "skills" for the job, but will broaden anyone's understanding of how we arrived at where we are now. 

I don't think I was talking about career paths at all. That's my point.  Do you think those workers at the jail were on a "career path"?  Hell no. They were low skilled workers who worked for the City and County and State. It was their job. It was their employers who required them to upgrade and get AA degrees.  Do you really think they learned anything from those classes. Well, I didn't take them, but I can assure you they probably learned very little. I was very well trained in my job, but was required to take classes.  And learned nothing from them. Degree over experience.  RCC has several programs towards "fire technology" and criminal and law enforcement fields. The way Community colleges work is that they create programs that are needed/required by the community. So, for instance they don't seem to have a program to study mining, but they do have programs for forestry.  It's pretty silly because most if not all of the knowledge can be imparted by training but it ties into funding so it ends up being required.  But not just AA level. That's what  happened to me. I got the AA and now they want Bachelors or Masters degrees. It doesn't end. If workers can find entry level jobs that train them keep them trained within their industry and programs more power to them, but that's not the trend.  You get into these professions and at a certain level, your ascension stops and  your are told to go get schooling. This is the cost of staying competitive and keeping their edge in the market. Cletus's story is the same as mine.  It becomes a self feeding monster and creates a lot of waste. Wasted time, money, funding.  I've seen a lot of that.

I DO see your point, and of course it's a messed up system. I'm thankful I was never caught up in it!

(Still, I think we are talking apples/oranges with regard to my comments about construction type jobs that sub contractors need). 
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#12
(08-29-2015, 09:55 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 09:49 AM)Tiamat Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 08:56 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-28-2015, 06:47 PM)Tiamat Wrote: When they say "everyone" they aren't even considering anything other than the professional class. Period. But even mid level jobs are beginning to require some kind of degree. I remember when I was going to school for my AA the entire corrective justice system was going also. It was a requirement that all the people in Jackson County Corrections get a minimum AA degree in criminal justice or similar.  It ties into funding. I know that I've been edged out of the market. Experience means little next to the Bachelor or higher degree regardless of expertise. Police, fire fighters, many different "blue collar" jobs are pushing or highly encouraging their workforce to get degrees, even if just AA's in related fields.

I take you point, and it's a good one. But you are (I think) talking about those on a "career path". In my post I was thinking about those (maybe the few) who simply want to work in what we used to call "the trades" and have little intellectual curiosity and don't feel the tug for formal schooling. Remember, "Topic" started with a news story about construction sites in Medford that could not find sub-contractors to complete work because they didn't have enough skilled labor for the necessary manpower. 
Back in the day, the Unions had apprentice programs to train workers. Now, things have changed (not for the better in my opinion) but a lot of contractors will take on guys (mostly) who simply show good work habits and with "on the job training" teach them necessary skills. I personally know some guys who have gone this route and have done really well (making good wages) without schooling beyond 12th grade. (I know of a couple who "hit the books" to learn some math so they could do the work required) 

But in the best of all possible worlds I'd want most to go on to at least a couple of years of school past high school. Not just to "gain skills" but for the advantage of learning that education is a life long endeavor and continue to read and study is it's own reward. 
An example: 




  1. The Swerve: How the World Became Modern is a book by Stephen Greenblatt and winner of the 2012 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction and 2011 National Book Award for Nonfiction. Wikipedia


  2. Published: September 19, 2011

  3. AuthorStephen Greenblatt

  4. Page count: 356
This will do nothing to provide "skills" for the job, but will broaden anyone's understanding of how we arrived at where we are now. 

I don't think I was talking about career paths at all. That's my point.  Do you think those workers at the jail were on a "career path"?  Hell no. They were low skilled workers who worked for the City and County and State. It was their job. It was their employers who required them to upgrade and get AA degrees.  Do you really think they learned anything from those classes. Well, I didn't take them, but I can assure you they probably learned very little. I was very well trained in my job, but was required to take classes.  And learned nothing from them. Degree over experience.  RCC has several programs towards "fire technology" and criminal and law enforcement fields. The way Community colleges work is that they create programs that are needed/required by the community. So, for instance they don't seem to have a program to study mining, but they do have programs for forestry.  It's pretty silly because most if not all of the knowledge can be imparted by training but it ties into funding so it ends up being required.  But not just AA level. That's what  happened to me. I got the AA and now they want Bachelors or Masters degrees. It doesn't end. If workers can find entry level jobs that train them keep them trained within their industry and programs more power to them, but that's not the trend.  You get into these professions and at a certain level, your ascension stops and  your are told to go get schooling. This is the cost of staying competitive and keeping their edge in the market. Cletus's story is the same as mine.  It becomes a self feeding monster and creates a lot of waste. Wasted time, money, funding.  I've seen a lot of that.

I DO see your point, and of course it's a messed up system. I'm thankful I was never caught up in it!

(Still, I think we are talking apples/oranges with regard to my comments about construction type jobs that sub contractors need). 


Well, you posted an article about the police and fire (I was responding to the article) and then tie it into construction which to me, are to different breeds of 'trades'. Seems to me just limiting it the idea of construction like careers is a bit limiting.
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#13
NO, of course not everyone needs to go to college. At this point in time I think there are a lot of unemployed college grads.
It's what Mike Rowe has been saying for years. Some how we have encouraged so many to go to college that we have a shortage of skilled labor.
Even if a person thinks it's all about money... There are countless small businesses owned by non college grads who make very good money.
You can be a contractor in ANY field, start your own business and be very successful. All it takes is the desire and drive.
Reply
#14
(08-29-2015, 09:49 AM)Tiamat Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 08:56 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-28-2015, 06:47 PM)Tiamat Wrote: When they say "everyone" they aren't even considering anything other than the professional class. Period. But even mid level jobs are beginning to require some kind of degree. I remember when I was going to school for my AA the entire corrective justice system was going also. It was a requirement that all the people in Jackson County Corrections get a minimum AA degree in criminal justice or similar.  It ties into funding. I know that I've been edged out of the market. Experience means little next to the Bachelor or higher degree regardless of expertise. Police, fire fighters, many different "blue collar" jobs are pushing or highly encouraging their workforce to get degrees, even if just AA's in related fields.

I take you point, and it's a good one. But you are (I think) talking about those on a "career path". In my post I was thinking about those (maybe the few) who simply want to work in what we used to call "the trades" and have little intellectual curiosity and don't feel the tug for formal schooling. Remember, "Topic" started with a news story about construction sites in Medford that could not find sub-contractors to complete work because they didn't have enough skilled labor for the necessary manpower. 
Back in the day, the Unions had apprentice programs to train workers. Now, things have changed (not for the better in my opinion) but a lot of contractors will take on guys (mostly) who simply show good work habits and with "on the job training" teach them necessary skills. I personally know some guys who have gone this route and have done really well (making good wages) without schooling beyond 12th grade. (I know of a couple who "hit the books" to learn some math so they could do the work required) 

But in the best of all possible worlds I'd want most to go on to at least a couple of years of school past high school. Not just to "gain skills" but for the advantage of learning that education is a life long endeavor and continue to read and study is it's own reward. 
An example: 



  1. The Swerve: How the World Became Modern is a book by Stephen Greenblatt and winner of the 2012 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction and 2011 National Book Award for Nonfiction. Wikipedia


  2. Published: September 19, 2011

  3. AuthorStephen Greenblatt

  4. Page count: 356
This will do nothing to provide "skills" for the job, but will broaden anyone's understanding of how we arrived at where we are now. 

I don't think I was talking about career paths at all. That's my point.  Do you think those workers at the jail were on a "career path"?  Hell no. They were low skilled workers who worked for the City and County and State. It was their job. It was their employers who required them to upgrade and get AA degrees.  Do you really think they learned anything from those classes. Well, I didn't take them, but I can assure you they probably learned very little. I was very well trained in my job, but was required to take classes.  And learned nothing from them. Degree over experience.  RCC has several programs towards "fire technology" and criminal and law enforcement fields. The way Community colleges work is that they create programs that are needed/required by the community. So, for instance they don't seem to have a program to study mining, but they do have programs for forestry.  It's pretty silly because most if not all of the knowledge can be imparted by training but it ties into funding so it ends up being required.  But not just AA level. That's what  happened to me. I got the AA and now they want Bachelors or Masters degrees. It doesn't end. If workers can find entry level jobs that train them keep them trained within their industry and programs more power to them, but that's not the trend.  You get into these professions and at a certain level, your ascension stops and  your are told to go get schooling. This is the cost of staying competitive and keeping their edge in the market. Cletus's story is the same as mine.  It becomes a self feeding monster and creates a lot of waste. Wasted time, money, funding.  I've seen a lot of that.

I don't disagree with you. In some cases, some jobs, there just isn't a practical way to provide OTJ training for what really requires classroom study. In other cases I think employers are just trying to shift the cost of training back onto the employee because they have no intention of attempting to retain the employee. And they just don't want the cost of training someone. Now it seems there is also what we could call the "Wonky rationale"  Smiling  . It's become popular to require employees to be educated in something, anything just because they can. It isn't always fair or make sense.


PS - damn you guys type fast!!
Reply
#15
(08-29-2015, 10:10 AM)Cuzz Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 09:49 AM)Tiamat Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 08:56 AM)Wonky3 Wrote:
(08-28-2015, 06:47 PM)Tiamat Wrote: When they say "everyone" they aren't even considering anything other than the professional class. Period. But even mid level jobs are beginning to require some kind of degree. I remember when I was going to school for my AA the entire corrective justice system was going also. It was a requirement that all the people in Jackson County Corrections get a minimum AA degree in criminal justice or similar.  It ties into funding. I know that I've been edged out of the market. Experience means little next to the Bachelor or higher degree regardless of expertise. Police, fire fighters, many different "blue collar" jobs are pushing or highly encouraging their workforce to get degrees, even if just AA's in related fields.

I take you point, and it's a good one. But you are (I think) talking about those on a "career path". In my post I was thinking about those (maybe the few) who simply want to work in what we used to call "the trades" and have little intellectual curiosity and don't feel the tug for formal schooling. Remember, "Topic" started with a news story about construction sites in Medford that could not find sub-contractors to complete work because they didn't have enough skilled labor for the necessary manpower. 
Back in the day, the Unions had apprentice programs to train workers. Now, things have changed (not for the better in my opinion) but a lot of contractors will take on guys (mostly) who simply show good work habits and with "on the job training" teach them necessary skills. I personally know some guys who have gone this route and have done really well (making good wages) without schooling beyond 12th grade. (I know of a couple who "hit the books" to learn some math so they could do the work required) 

But in the best of all possible worlds I'd want most to go on to at least a couple of years of school past high school. Not just to "gain skills" but for the advantage of learning that education is a life long endeavor and continue to read and study is it's own reward. 
An example: 




  1. The Swerve: How the World Became Modern is a book by Stephen Greenblatt and winner of the 2012 Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction and 2011 National Book Award for Nonfiction. Wikipedia


  2. Published: September 19, 2011

  3. AuthorStephen Greenblatt

  4. Page count: 356
This will do nothing to provide "skills" for the job, but will broaden anyone's understanding of how we arrived at where we are now. 

I don't think I was talking about career paths at all. That's my point.  Do you think those workers at the jail were on a "career path"?  Hell no. They were low skilled workers who worked for the City and County and State. It was their job. It was their employers who required them to upgrade and get AA degrees.  Do you really think they learned anything from those classes. Well, I didn't take them, but I can assure you they probably learned very little. I was very well trained in my job, but was required to take classes.  And learned nothing from them. Degree over experience.  RCC has several programs towards "fire technology" and criminal and law enforcement fields. The way Community colleges work is that they create programs that are needed/required by the community. So, for instance they don't seem to have a program to study mining, but they do have programs for forestry.  It's pretty silly because most if not all of the knowledge can be imparted by training but it ties into funding so it ends up being required.  But not just AA level. That's what  happened to me. I got the AA and now they want Bachelors or Masters degrees. It doesn't end. If workers can find entry level jobs that train them keep them trained within their industry and programs more power to them, but that's not the trend.  You get into these professions and at a certain level, your ascension stops and  your are told to go get schooling. This is the cost of staying competitive and keeping their edge in the market. Cletus's story is the same as mine.  It becomes a self feeding monster and creates a lot of waste. Wasted time, money, funding.  I've seen a lot of that.

I don't disagree with you. In some cases, some jobs, there just isn't a practical way to provide OTJ training for what really requires classroom study. In other cases I think employers are just trying to shift the cost of training back onto the employee because they have no intention of attempting to retain the employee. And they just don't want the cost of training someone. Now it seems there is also what we could call the "Wonky rationale"  Smiling  . It's become popular to require employees to be educated in something, anything just because they can. It isn't always fair or make sense.


PS - damn you guys type fast!!

Very much so.
Reply
#16
In skilled labor fields there isn't any other way to teach the skills OTHER than on the job. All you can do is teach the basics. The rest HAS to come from experience.
Reply
#17
(08-29-2015, 10:22 AM)tvguy Wrote: In skilled labor fields there isn't any other way to teach the skills OTHER than on the job. All you can do is teach the basics. The rest HAS to come from experience.

I would agree with that but I would point out that sometimes the formal training and experience are of equal importance. You can't get the experience without the book learning no mater how hard you try.
Reply
#18
(08-29-2015, 10:22 AM)tvguy Wrote: In skilled labor fields there isn't any other way to teach the skills OTHER than on the job. All you can do is teach the basics. The rest HAS to come from experience.

I agree with you, TV.  And it is truth and a truth they can't deny. BUT it doesn't keep employers from still asking their employees to get additional formal education and that is the growing trend.
Reply
#19
(08-29-2015, 11:57 AM)Tiamat Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 10:22 AM)tvguy Wrote: In skilled labor fields there isn't any other way to teach the skills OTHER than on the job. All you can do is teach the basics. The rest HAS to come from experience.

I agree with you, TV.  And it is truth and a truth they can't deny. BUT it doesn't keep employers from still asking their employees to get additional formal education and that is the growing trend.

Yeah sure. But is that because employers can afford to be choosy? in THIS economy? I mean the type of employers YOU deal with.If I was an employer I would also try and get people with the best education or who have exceeded a high school education.
But right now it looks to me like employers looking for skilled labor would be happy to get anyone who was experienced. Even if they didn't read Tolstoy at lunch like Wonky.
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#20
(08-29-2015, 12:53 PM)tvguy Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 11:57 AM)Tiamat Wrote:
(08-29-2015, 10:22 AM)tvguy Wrote: In skilled labor fields there isn't any other way to teach the skills OTHER than on the job. All you can do is teach the basics. The rest HAS to come from experience.

I agree with you, TV.  And it is truth and a truth they can't deny. BUT it doesn't keep employers from still asking their employees to get additional formal education and that is the growing trend.

Yeah sure. But is that because employers can afford to be choosy? in THIS economy? I mean the type of employers YOU deal with.If I was an employer I would also try and get people with the best education or who have exceeded a high school education.
But right now it looks to me like employers looking for skilled labor would be happy to get anyone who was experienced. Even if they didn't read Tolstoy at lunch like Wonky.

Well, if you consider only trades like construction or plumbers. But there are lots of other blue collar jobs out there than that.  Those women at RCC who were in corrections...they weren't on a career ladder. They were just jail guards. They weren't looking at anything else. They wanted to raise their kids and get paid for their job.  There are different kinds of jobs. Wonky posted an article specifically citing law enforcement and fire technology and those are good examples of employers who are requiring experience, training and additionally education. There are people in social work or similar fields who have miles of experience and now their employers are requiring them to upgrade their educations.  The education doesn't increase their skill base usually, if they have enough experience but the system requires it. Computer technology is like that.  I know people who are quite expert in this field but don't have college degrees. Some employers are ok with that...Taupe Hat was that way....but more and more they want both. When  you say "afford", a lot of programs rely on certain kinds of funding and that's often where the requirement comes in.
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