You shove me, I kill you

[tvguy]

I think it interesting that different people watch the same video and see very different things.

I know , exactly. IMO the victim was clearly no longer a threat. The instant he saw the gun he stepped back. And THEN the guy on the ground fired.


But I do agree with GP as far as his point that we can't know what was going through the shooters mind. The shooter only has to believe  shooting is necessary to "prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself, or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"







In its simplest form, the statute provides that a person is justified in the use of deadly force and has no duty to retreat if either:

the person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself, or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; o

Yes, all true. Except there's that pesky qualifier "reasonably" in there. That seems to change the meaning depending on who gets to decide just what that means.

Well yes of course. The Sheriff believes the shooter reasonably felt deadly force was necessary. It remains to be seen if that's the opinion of the state.


It's really close. I don't see there was a REAL threat when the guy fired. But like GP said is as a split second decision from a guy who's adrenaline must have been pumping.

Yeah,  I understand all that. It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings. I don't know him so I really have no idea.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

After watching the video several times I don't think it was all that close. But that's just my opinion. I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through. I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

  It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

Nor do I but it's factor that should be considered overall.

I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through

Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?



  I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

 I don't know what you mean? Waiting another second before he shot?

[Cuzz]

I know , exactly. IMO the victim was clearly no longer a threat. The instant he saw the gun he stepped back. And THEN the guy on the ground fired.


But I do agree with GP as far as his point that we can't know what was going through the shooters mind. The shooter only has to believe  shooting is necessary to "prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself, or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony"







In its simplest form, the statute provides that a person is justified in the use of deadly force and has no duty to retreat if either:

the person reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself, or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; o

Yes, all true. Except there's that pesky qualifier "reasonably" in there. That seems to change the meaning depending on who gets to decide just what that means.

Well yes of course. The Sheriff believes the shooter reasonably felt deadly force was necessary. It remains to be seen if that's the opinion of the state.


It's really close. I don't see there was a REAL threat when the guy fired. But like GP said is as a split second decision from a guy who's adrenaline must have been pumping.

Yeah,  I understand all that. It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings. I don't know him so I really have no idea.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

After watching the video several times I don't think it was all that close. But that's just my opinion. I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through. I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

  It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

Nor do I but it's factor that should be considered overall.

I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through

Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?



  I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

 I don't know what you mean? Waiting another second before he shot?

" It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law."

I never said it was likely, just possible.

"Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?"

Why not? everyone else is doing it.  

[tvguy]

Yes, all true. Except there's that pesky qualifier "reasonably" in there. That seems to change the meaning depending on who gets to decide just what that means.

Well yes of course. The Sheriff believes the shooter reasonably felt deadly force was necessary. It remains to be seen if that's the opinion of the state.


It's really close. I don't see there was a REAL threat when the guy fired. But like GP said is as a split second decision from a guy who's adrenaline must have been pumping.

Yeah,  I understand all that. It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings. I don't know him so I really have no idea.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

After watching the video several times I don't think it was all that close. But that's just my opinion. I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through. I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

  It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

Nor do I but it's factor that should be considered overall.

I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through

Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?



  I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

 I don't know what you mean? Waiting another second before he shot?

" It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law."

I never said it was likely, just possible.

"Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?"

Why not? everyone else is doing it.  

    I read a lot of what sheriff said. People kept telling him the guy was really weird and strange etc.

The Sheriff said none of that matters at all. That nothing matters other than was the shooter in fear of his life or great bodily harm... or not.

And that's all that really matters.... is it reasonable to assume he wasn't?

[Cuzz]

Well yes of course. The Sheriff believes the shooter reasonably felt deadly force was necessary. It remains to be seen if that's the opinion of the state.


It's really close. I don't see there was a REAL threat when the guy fired. But like GP said is as a split second decision from a guy who's adrenaline must have been pumping.

Yeah,  I understand all that. It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings. I don't know him so I really have no idea.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

After watching the video several times I don't think it was all that close. But that's just my opinion. I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through. I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

  It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

Nor do I but it's factor that should be considered overall.

I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through

Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?



  I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

 I don't know what you mean? Waiting another second before he shot?

" It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law."

I never said it was likely, just possible.

"Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?"

Why not? everyone else is doing it.  

    I read a lot of what sheriff said. People kept telling him the guy was really weird and strange etc.

The Sheriff said none of that matters at all. That nothing matters other than was the shooter in fear of his life or great bodily harm... or not.

And that's all that really matters.... is it reasonable to assume he wasn't?

What? In fear of his life? Sure, maybe not, I don't know and I don't believe anyone else on the internet can know either. He could just as easily been determined to shoot anyone that stood up to him. Some guys are like that.

[tvguy]

Yeah,  I understand all that. It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings. I don't know him so I really have no idea.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

After watching the video several times I don't think it was all that close. But that's just my opinion. I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through. I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

  It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

Nor do I but it's factor that should be considered overall.

I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through

Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?



  I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

 I don't know what you mean? Waiting another second before he shot?

" It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law."

I never said it was likely, just possible.

"Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?"

Why not? everyone else is doing it.  

    I read a lot of what sheriff said. People kept telling him the guy was really weird and strange etc.

The Sheriff said none of that matters at all. That nothing matters other than was the shooter in fear of his life or great bodily harm... or not.

And that's all that really matters.... is it reasonable to assume he wasn't?

What? In fear of his life? Sure, maybe not, I don't know and I don't believe anyone else on the internet can know either. He could just as easily been determined to shoot anyone that stood up to him. Some guys are like that.

 Yep. But I hope you are not equating the guy who was shot as someone who "stood up to him."

[Cuzz]

  It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law.

I just don't think his pumping adrenaline outweighs his responsibility to not kill someone unnecessarily.

Nor do I but it's factor that should be considered overall.

I think he had already decided at some point to pull the trigger and he followed through

Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?



  I don't think another second would have made a difference and a second is a long time in those situations.

 I don't know what you mean? Waiting another second before he shot?

" It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law."

I never said it was likely, just possible.

"Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?"

Why not? everyone else is doing it.  

    I read a lot of what sheriff said. People kept telling him the guy was really weird and strange etc.

The Sheriff said none of that matters at all. That nothing matters other than was the shooter in fear of his life or great bodily harm... or not.

And that's all that really matters.... is it reasonable to assume he wasn't?

What? In fear of his life? Sure, maybe not, I don't know and I don't believe anyone else on the internet can know either. He could just as easily been determined to shoot anyone that stood up to him. Some guys are like that.

 Yep. But I hope you are not equating the guy who was shot as someone who "stood up to him."

Why?

[tvguy]

" It's even possible the Sheriff doesn't like the law and wanted to highlight it's shortcomings

Huh? it seems to me like if anything the Sheriff DOES like the law."

I never said it was likely, just possible.

"Can you really think you know what was going on in his mind?"

Why not? everyone else is doing it.  

    I read a lot of what sheriff said. People kept telling him the guy was really weird and strange etc.

The Sheriff said none of that matters at all. That nothing matters other than was the shooter in fear of his life or great bodily harm... or not.

And that's all that really matters.... is it reasonable to assume he wasn't?

What? In fear of his life? Sure, maybe not, I don't know and I don't believe anyone else on the internet can know either. He could just as easily been determined to shoot anyone that stood up to him. Some guys are like that.

 Yep. But I hope you are not equating the guy who was shot as someone who "stood up to him."

Why?

  Because you don't assault someone because you don't like what they are saying to your wife. Especially when you do something as stupid as park in a handicapped space.Which is why someone was talking to his wife.
Not to mention the cowardly way he shoved the guy down which is no different than a sucker punch.
Act like a thug die like a thug.
I don't mean he deserved to die. As a matter of fact I still think the guy shot when the threat was over.

[Cuzz]

    I read a lot of what sheriff said. People kept telling him the guy was really weird and strange etc.

The Sheriff said none of that matters at all. That nothing matters other than was the shooter in fear of his life or great bodily harm... or not.

And that's all that really matters.... is it reasonable to assume he wasn't?

What? In fear of his life? Sure, maybe not, I don't know and I don't believe anyone else on the internet can know either. He could just as easily been determined to shoot anyone that stood up to him. Some guys are like that.

 Yep. But I hope you are not equating the guy who was shot as someone who "stood up to him."

Why?

  Because you don't assault someone because you don't like what they are saying to your wife. Especially when you do something as stupid as park in a handicapped space.Which is why someone was talking to his wife.
Not to mention the cowardly way he shoved the guy down which is no different than a sucker punch.
Act like a thug die like a thug.
I don't mean he deserved to die. As a matter of fact I still think the guy shot when the threat was over.

Oh come on, pick a side. You can't have 'em both!  

[tvguy]

What? In fear of his life? Sure, maybe not, I don't know and I don't believe anyone else on the internet can know either. He could just as easily been determined to shoot anyone that stood up to him. Some guys are like that.

 Yep. But I hope you are not equating the guy who was shot as someone who "stood up to him."

Why?

  Because you don't assault someone because you don't like what they are saying to your wife. Especially when you do something as stupid as park in a handicapped space.Which is why someone was talking to his wife.
Not to mention the cowardly way he shoved the guy down which is no different than a sucker punch.
Act like a thug die like a thug.
I don't mean he deserved to die. As a matter of fact I still think the guy shot when the threat was over.

Oh come on, pick a side. You can't have 'em both!  

I know right.. It's like the FB mentality when someone posts something and everyone sides with the first people who posted opinions.

[Cuzz]

 Yep. But I hope you are not equating the guy who was shot as someone who "stood up to him."

Why?

  Because you don't assault someone because you don't like what they are saying to your wife. Especially when you do something as stupid as park in a handicapped space.Which is why someone was talking to his wife.
Not to mention the cowardly way he shoved the guy down which is no different than a sucker punch.
Act like a thug die like a thug.
I don't mean he deserved to die. As a matter of fact I still think the guy shot when the threat was over.

Oh come on, pick a side. You can't have 'em both!  

I know right.. It's like the FB mentality when someone posts something and everyone sides with the first people who posted opinions.

I don't know if I'd fit in on FB. I think I'm a Born Again Contrarian.

[GPnative]

I have watched this a few more times, worth noting, the bystander....look how fast and far he retreats as soon as the gun makes an appearance compared to the response/reaction of the guy who shoved the shooter. It makes the case that the shooter had reason to be in fear of life and further bodily harm.

[tvguy]

I have watched this a few more times, worth noting, the bystander....look how fast and far he retreats as soon as the gun makes an appearance compared to the response/reaction of the guy who shoved the shooter. It makes the case that the shooter had reason to be in fear of life and further bodily harm.

  I don't see any difference in how fast each person responded. They both reacted at the same time. The bystander made more of a beat feet exit but the victim backed up at what looks to me to be the same time.

[Cuzz]

I have watched this a few more times, worth noting, the bystander....look how fast and far he retreats as soon as the gun makes an appearance compared to the response/reaction of the guy who shoved the shooter. It makes the case that the shooter had reason to be in fear of life and further bodily harm.

  I don't see any difference in how fast each person responded. They both reacted at the same time. The bystander made more of a beat feet exit but the victim backed up at what looks to me to be the same time.

Yeah, besides his family is behind him. Do you expect him to run away and abandon them?

[tvguy]

I have watched this a few more times, worth noting, the bystander....look how fast and far he retreats as soon as the gun makes an appearance compared to the response/reaction of the guy who shoved the shooter. It makes the case that the shooter had reason to be in fear of life and further bodily harm.

  I don't see any difference in how fast each person responded. They both reacted at the same time. The bystander made more of a beat feet exit but the victim backed up at what looks to me to be the same time.

Yeah, besides his family is behind him. Do you expect him to run away and abandon them?

  Yes being such a great father he wouldn't run and right after he showed his wife and kids how to commit a crime.


And WTF was the lady thinking getting out of her car?

[Cuzz]

I have watched this a few more times, worth noting, the bystander....look how fast and far he retreats as soon as the gun makes an appearance compared to the response/reaction of the guy who shoved the shooter. It makes the case that the shooter had reason to be in fear of life and further bodily harm.

  I don't see any difference in how fast each person responded. They both reacted at the same time. The bystander made more of a beat feet exit but the victim backed up at what looks to me to be the same time.

Yeah, besides his family is behind him. Do you expect him to run away and abandon them?

  Yes being such a great father he wouldn't run and right after he showed his wife and kids how to commit a crime.


And WTF was the lady thinking getting out of her car?

Besides it was Tuesday or some other day of the week. Right?

[tvguy]

I have watched this a few more times, worth noting, the bystander....look how fast and far he retreats as soon as the gun makes an appearance compared to the response/reaction of the guy who shoved the shooter. It makes the case that the shooter had reason to be in fear of life and further bodily harm.

  I don't see any difference in how fast each person responded. They both reacted at the same time. The bystander made more of a beat feet exit but the victim backed up at what looks to me to be the same time.

Yeah, besides his family is behind him. Do you expect him to run away and abandon them?

  Yes being such a great father he wouldn't run and right after he showed his wife and kids how to commit a crime.


And WTF was the lady thinking getting out of her car?

Besides it was Tuesday or some other day of the week. Right?

 You lost me. I have no idea what you mean.

[Cuzz]

  I don't see any difference in how fast each person responded. They both reacted at the same time. The bystander made more of a beat feet exit but the victim backed up at what looks to me to be the same time.

Yeah, besides his family is behind him. Do you expect him to run away and abandon them?

  Yes being such a great father he wouldn't run and right after he showed his wife and kids how to commit a crime.


And WTF was the lady thinking getting out of her car?

Besides it was Tuesday or some other day of the week. Right?

 You lost me. I have no idea what you mean.

Yeah, that was my reaction too.

I think I'm tired of this.

[Juniper]

Yeah, besides his family is behind him. Do you expect him to run away and abandon them?

  Yes being such a great father he wouldn't run and right after he showed his wife and kids how to commit a crime.


And WTF was the lady thinking getting out of her car?

Besides it was Tuesday or some other day of the week. Right?

 You lost me. I have no idea what you mean.

Yeah, that was my reaction too.

I think I'm tired of this.

I have not watched the video or followed the thread. I'm lost too.

[tvguy]

  Yes being such a great father he wouldn't run and right after he showed his wife and kids how to commit a crime.


And WTF was the lady thinking getting out of her car?

Besides it was Tuesday or some other day of the week. Right?

 You lost me. I have no idea what you mean.

Yeah, that was my reaction too.

I think I'm tired of this.

I have not watched the video or followed the thread. I'm lost too.

 I posted the video. The debate is simple.Was the guy on the ground in fear of his life or great bodily harm WHEN he fired.
Of course we can't know what he was thinking. But based on what the attacker was doing when the shot went off some of us think the shooter didn't need to shoot.

[Juniper]

Besides it was Tuesday or some other day of the week. Right?

 You lost me. I have no idea what you mean.

Yeah, that was my reaction too.

I think I'm tired of this.

I have not watched the video or followed the thread. I'm lost too.

 I posted the video. The debate is simple.Was the guy on the ground in fear of his life or great bodily harm WHEN he fired.
Of course we can't know what he was thinking. But based on what the attacker was doing when the shot went off some of us think the shooter didn't need to shoot.

That was my lame attempt at humor, TV.