Help me please with World Wide Economy

[Wonky]

We once had a lot a manufacturing jobs in the U.S.
And well paying jobs in many other sectors. (Even pulling green chain in the Rogue Valley paid well enough for a guy to raise a family).

I know. I worked in the 1950's and made a decent wage on an assembly line building Nash Ramblers. At the same time in the 1950's there were people all over the globe willing to work for pennies a day. So, why in 1955 did we still make steel, etc., here, when workers in third world country's were willing to sweat for so much less?

From things I read, the CEO's are still making huge salaries. Stock holders are doing okay (if they invest wisely). Investment bankers are doing fine. Even most lawyers, doctors, dentists, and 2nd story men are doing okay.

What changed? When? How? Why didn't it happen in 1955?

Everyday I hear the conservative republicans in Congress telling me "the market" will fix our economy if we only "take the boot of government off the neck of the private sector".

Oh yea? For millions of Americans, "the market" does not seem to working so well.

And I don't really understand why.

[Leonard]

We once had a lot a manufacturing jobs in the U.S.
And well paying jobs in many other sectors. (Even pulling green chain in the Rogue Valley paid well enough for a guy to raise a family).

I know. I worked in the 1950's and made a decent wage on an assembly line building Nash Ramblers. At the same time in the 1950's there were people all over the globe willing to work for pennies a day. So, why in 1955 did we still make steel, etc., here, when workers in third world country's were willing to sweat for so much less?

From things I read, the CEO's are still making huge salaries. Stock holders are doing okay (if they invest wisely). Investment bankers are doing fine. Even most lawyers, doctors, dentists, and 2nd story men are doing okay.

What changed? When? How? Why didn't it happen in 1955?

Everyday I hear the conservative republicans in Congress telling me "the market" will fix our economy if we only "take the boot of government off the neck of the private sector".

Oh yea? For millions of Americans, "the market" does not seem to working so well.

And I don't really understand why.

It seems to me the Stock Market, the Free Market, the US and the world economy are actually Ponzi schemes designed to fail in the long run after all the profits have been wrung out.

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors, not from any actual profit earned by the organization, but from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors.

Verbal constructions that sound impressive but are essentially meaningless will be used to dazzle investors: terms such as "hedge futures trading," "high-yield investment programs," "offshore investment" might be used. The promoter will then proceed to sell stakes to investors—who are essentially victims of a confidence trick—by taking advantage of a lack of investor knowledge or competence. Claims of a "proprietary" investment strategy, which must be kept secret to ensure a competitive edge, may also be used to hide the nature of the scheme.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

[tvguy]

'Wonky' pid='122787' dateline='1309968197']
We once had a lot a manufacturing jobs in the U.S.
And well paying jobs in many other sectors. (Even pulling green chain in the Rogue Valley paid well enough for a guy to raise a family).

I know. I worked in the 1950's and made a decent wage on an assembly line building Nash Ramblers. At the same time in the 1950's there were people all over the globe willing to work for pennies a day. So, why in 1955 did we still make steel, etc., here, when workers in third world country's were willing to sweat for so much less?
From things I read, the CEO's are still making huge salaries. Stock holders are doing okay (if they invest wisely). Investment bankers are doing fine. Even most lawyers, doctors, dentists, and 2nd story men are doing okay. What changed? When? How? Why didn't it happen in 1955?

Because Ward Cleaver wouldn't allow it!. Or perhaps it had to do with the costs of shipping, building a factory on foreign soil and all that.
I'm positive our ocean shipping was not very efficient then. I think they were still hauling freight on the Pinta and the Santa Maria.

I think back then they actually had an underwater telephone line and just to make a call you had to have five pounds of quarters and go through an operator named Maude. Perhaps it because we have a global economy,the Internet, radial tires and wine in a box.

In 55 What countries had decent airports , bathrooms , a Macdonald's or people who wore clothes?


Wonky I have asked this question on this forum before...How the hell CAN we compete with people who will work for pennies an hour in countries that worry about industry first and clean air and water second.

I think the answer is that we simply can't.

[tvguy]

It seems to me the Stock Market, the Free Market, the US and the world economy are actually Ponzi schemes designed to fail in the long run after all the profits have been wrung out.

Move over JC , we got our selves a new doom and gloom Sheriff in town who makes JC look like a giddy wide eyed optimist.
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

[Leonard]

TV;
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

Yes, life itself is worth living for, especially if one is having a good time. And, to paraphrase Socrates ''an unexamined life is not worth living''.

[tvguy]

TV;
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

Yes, life itself is worth living for, especially if one is having a good time. And, to paraphrase Socrates ''an unexamined life is not worth living''.

Examining? that's what you do? or dissecting and always looking for cancers like some mad scientist.

[PonderThis]

He's enlightening us from those that their news from mainstream sources, and I for one appreciate him for that. Between you rah-rah Americans and Christians in this country it's all we can do to get the truth out about damn near anything.

[Wonky]

He's enlightening us from those that their news from mainstream sources, and I for one appreciate him for that. Between you rah-rah Americans and Christians in this country it's all we can do to get the truth out about damn near anything.

Whoa! Hold those horses, Ponder. They are running into the fire.

I'm a rah-rah American I think. Whatever, I'm really glad for the blessings I have as compared to say, Iraq. Not a Christian, but once was. Some good values there, if held in reasonable check. (I know...a very biased opinion)

And "The unexamined life", my dear TVg, is a problem pervasive in our country. You are obviously giving it another of your good humor blasts, and you too know it to be true.

But I'm still without any deeper understanding about the whole "World Wide Economy" thing. I'm still trying to work out what is so different between now and the 50's when "things worked".

I need all the help I can get. If you can draw pictures it would be good.

[PonderThis]

For at least one thing, we've squandered the national wealth fighting endless stupid wars. They've managed to keep most Americans in favor of fighting those wars, so in that regards we deserve what we've got, but it's still been a useless waste of national wealth.

I'm tempted to say U.S. unions played a part too, but I don't honestly know well enough if that's true or not.

[Yeshuah Hamashiach]

Wonk if you really want some answers well , I think I can help. First off you need to be in a calm space with patience and time to start a thought experiment.
Now we could start this thing at the birth of the Industrial revolution but lets not. Lets just go back to some good times. Good times before PCs were the norm. Remember that pace ? Lets pick 1970 even in its social upheaval , it paled to what is going down today. Consider the pace of production , consider the population numbers , consider the mindset of folks.

That world is gone now isn't it ? What has been happening is that the world is in a race to technologically increase the complex mechanization of every process known to man that sustains and entertains him. In the process every corner of the globe that can sustain population growth subsidized by High tech AG has become highly populated. Then there is the whole WWW thing and entertainment. In other words why are we here on the planet doing what we are doing ? Silicon based lifestyles have for the most part replaced the old standards and whether the Psychologists/Medical folks really will admit it or not the human mind is burning out on unnecessary stimulus via High Tech . So all in all as far as people being productive and knowing where they are going at the same time ? You can do one or the other but not both.

Humanity is at a crossroads and the compass is spinning around in a circle. That is no prescription for a healthy economy / productivity. There are folks considering directions we can take but you wont see them or read much about them. If you walk onto a top notch level University campus and find the right building , then start asking people to help you find the person or persons you need to talk to , you would be surprised how helpful people can be . In short one one major level everything is approaching a standstill because nobody really knows which way to go. There are many more possibilities than the people in power would like the masses to know about.

There are indeed simple solutions or better put simpler ways of seeing what needs to be done , but you wont here about them much through the MSM. The business of the MSM is to keep the wheels of the machine spinning that is just about the sum of it.

SO start that thought experiment and run a loop over and over seeing how everything has changed /expanded keep going back to simpler times on a nice summer day with Am radio top 100 playing. Perhaps you are working on rebuilding your carburetor. then flash to today and then run a slow progressing thing form then to now over and over . Bits and pieces of vision will come into focus . If you get overwhelmed , find some proper level number puzzles to work on , I kid you not , it will change those thought cyclings faster than any drug can. Omar Bradly used to work differential calculus problems to help him think things through more effectively and he had a job that truly required it. - JC

[tvguy]

TV;
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

Yes, life itself is worth living for, especially if one is having a good time. And, to paraphrase Socrates ''an unexamined life is not worth living''.

Examining? that's what you do? or dissecting and always looking for cancers like some mad scientist.

Enlightening us my butt cheeks. He lives in his own world where all he Sees is the problems and gives zero credit where credit is due. It's no wonder you defend him you are one in the same, both champions of anything that's wrong with anything.

It's preposterous to assume anyone who doesn't share all of the Anti American views you two have is some rah- rah American. It's even more preposterous to call me that of all people.

.I think it's pretty damn funny that when someone makes a post about some great injustice that if I don't jump on the bandwagon and also feign outrage that I'm immediately pro cop , pro military or a rah-rah American.
I try very hard to be objective and to see both sides but apparently that's no fun on a forum full of ultra liberal suspicious anti everything arm chair quarterbacks.

Some POOR POOR homeless guy was given 15 years for armed bank robbery and I'm supposed to jump in line with everyone else and pity the poor man. Never mind that the story made ZERO mention of what this mans criminal record might have been.
Hell no lets not wait for any facts... lets lash out against the American justice system FIRST:wacko::wacko::wacko:

Wonky....And "The unexamined life", my dear TVg, is a problem pervasive in our country. You are obviously giving it another of your good humor blasts, and you too know it to be true.

I'm not sure you think you know What I think I said:wacko: For the umpteenth time I don't have a damn thing against dissent, or examining or if people don't want to be main stream. I don't freaking care.

But it chaps my ass to hear these guys day after day doing NOTHING but finding fault with EVERY FRIGGIN THING!!!

Our laws... A democracy.The police, the laws, the prisons, our heath care, sports, food, hunting , fishing, logging, breathing you freaking name it Wonky. I know you are VERY UNconfrontational but I know you know what I'm saying is true with these two yokels who hate everything there is about our country and then some.

Screw them and THEIR kind of "examining"

[rainylady]

TV;
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

Yes, life itself is worth living for, especially if one is having a good time. And, to paraphrase Socrates ''an unexamined life is not worth living''.

Examining? that's what you do? or dissecting and always looking for cancers like some mad scientist.

Enlightening us my butt cheeks. He lives in his own world where all he Sees is the problems and gives zero credit where credit is due. It's no wonder you defend him you are one in the same, both champions of anything that's wrong with anything.

It's preposterous to assume anyone who doesn't share all of the Anti American views you two have is some rah- rah American. It's even more preposterous to call me that of all people.

.I think it's pretty damn funny that when someone makes a post about some great injustice that if I don't jump on the bandwagon and also feign outrage that I'm immediately pro cop , pro military or a rah-rah American.
I try very hard to be objective and to see both sides but apparently that's no fun on a forum full of ultra liberal suspicious anti everything arm chair quarterbacks.

Some POOR POOR homeless guy was given 15 years for armed bank robbery and I'm supposed to jump in line with everyone else and pity the poor man. Never mind that the story made ZERO mention of what this mans criminal record might have been.
Hell no lets not wait for any facts... lets lash out against the American justice system FIRST:wacko::wacko::wacko:

Wonky....And "The unexamined life", my dear TVg, is a problem pervasive in our country. You are obviously giving it another of your good humor blasts, and you too know it to be true.

I'm not sure you think you know What I think I said:wacko: For the umpteenth time I don't have a damn thing against dissent, or examining or if people don't want to be main stream. I don't freaking care.

But it chaps my ass to hear these guys day after day doing NOTHING but finding fault with EVERY FRIGGIN THING!!!

Our laws... A democracy.The police, the laws, the prisons, our heath care, sports, food, hunting , fishing, logging, breathing you freaking name it Wonky. I know you are VERY UNconfrontational but I know you know what I'm saying is true with these two yokels who hate everything there is about our country and then some.

Screw them and THEIR kind of "examining"

I think they are critical of our country for higher standards purpose. I do not think they hate our country. If you want to see something do better you have got to know what's wrong. They are only pointing out the wrong.

I doubt they would want to live anywhere else.

[Wonky]

TV;
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

Yes, life itself is worth living for, especially if one is having a good time. And, to paraphrase Socrates ''an unexamined life is not worth living''.

Examining? that's what you do? or dissecting and always looking for cancers like some mad scientist.

Enlightening us my butt cheeks. He lives in his own world where all he Sees is the problems and gives zero credit where credit is due. It's no wonder you defend him you are one in the same, both champions of anything that's wrong with anything.

It's preposterous to assume anyone who doesn't share all of the Anti American views you two have is some rah- rah American. It's even more preposterous to call me that of all people.

.I think it's pretty damn funny that when someone makes a post about some great injustice that if I don't jump on the bandwagon and also feign outrage that I'm immediately pro cop , pro military or a rah-rah American.
I try very hard to be objective and to see both sides but apparently that's no fun on a forum full of ultra liberal suspicious anti everything arm chair quarterbacks.

Some POOR POOR homeless guy was given 15 years for armed bank robbery and I'm supposed to jump in line with everyone else and pity the poor man. Never mind that the story made ZERO mention of what this mans criminal record might have been.
Hell no lets not wait for any facts... lets lash out against the American justice system FIRST:wacko::wacko::wacko:

Wonky....And "The unexamined life", my dear TVg, is a problem pervasive in our country. You are obviously giving it another of your good humor blasts, and you too know it to be true.

I'm not sure you think you know What I think I said:wacko: For the umpteenth time I don't have a damn thing against dissent, or examining or if people don't want to be main stream. I don't freaking care.

But it chaps my ass to hear these guys day after day doing NOTHING but finding fault with EVERY FRIGGIN THING!!!

Our laws... A democracy.The police, the laws, the prisons, our heath care, sports, food, hunting , fishing, logging, breathing you freaking name it Wonky. I know you are VERY UNconfrontational but I know you know what I'm saying is true with these two yokels who hate everything there is about our country and then some.

Screw them and THEIR kind of "examining"

At the moment, I gotta go take a .....I mean I have to go check on the pot roast.
But I can't wait to get back and scorch your ass with some truth that will render you a hopeless pile of smoldering DNA. (It's my job )

[tvguy]

I think they are critical of our country for higher standards purpose. I do not think they hate our country. If you want to see something do better you have got to know what's wrong. They are only pointing out the wrong.

In a nutshell RL they think EVERYTHING is wrong. I'm sorry but they haven't shown me ANY reason to think they don't hate this country.

[PonderThis]

TV;
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

Yes, life itself is worth living for, especially if one is having a good time. And, to paraphrase Socrates ''an unexamined life is not worth living''.

Examining? that's what you do? or dissecting and always looking for cancers like some mad scientist.

Enlightening us my butt cheeks. He lives in his own world where all he Sees is the problems and gives zero credit where credit is due. It's no wonder you defend him you are one in the same, both champions of anything that's wrong with anything.

It's preposterous to assume anyone who doesn't share all of the Anti American views you two have is some rah- rah American. It's even more preposterous to call me that of all people.

.I think it's pretty damn funny that when someone makes a post about some great injustice that if I don't jump on the bandwagon and also feign outrage that I'm immediately pro cop , pro military or a rah-rah American.
I try very hard to be objective and to see both sides but apparently that's no fun on a forum full of ultra liberal suspicious anti everything arm chair quarterbacks.

Some POOR POOR homeless guy was given 15 years for armed bank robbery and I'm supposed to jump in line with everyone else and pity the poor man. Never mind that the story made ZERO mention of what this mans criminal record might have been.
Hell no lets not wait for any facts... lets lash out against the American justice system FIRST:wacko::wacko::wacko:

Wonky....And "The unexamined life", my dear TVg, is a problem pervasive in our country. You are obviously giving it another of your good humor blasts, and you too know it to be true.

I'm not sure you think you know What I think I said:wacko: For the umpteenth time I don't have a damn thing against dissent, or examining or if people don't want to be main stream. I don't freaking care.

But it chaps my ass to hear these guys day after day doing NOTHING but finding fault with EVERY FRIGGIN THING!!!

Our laws... A democracy.The police, the laws, the prisons, our heath care, sports, food, hunting , fishing, logging, breathing you freaking name it Wonky. I know you are VERY UNconfrontational but I know you know what I'm saying is true with these two yokels who hate everything there is about our country and then some.

Screw them and THEIR kind of "examining"

I love it when TV gets mad.

The thing is, TV is defending a system that hasn't even worked for him particularly well. He was so poor in the beginning years he was forced to steal firewood off forest lands to get by, a fact he forgets when he espouses laws and rule so much now. He had some good years as a union member, a job that no longer seems to have a place for him. In the meantime, he's supported himself by buying and selling locally and off ebay, a fact I'd be highly surprised if his income tax forms reflect. In short, although TV has got by fine, it wasn't all legal, and it wasn't all easy either, and most of the ways aren't available to the common schmuck (and that's to TV's credit as a clever and enterprising guy, and I mean that earnestly). It's still a version of America which is not the face of democracy anyone particularly wants to see or is replicatable for most others, either.

[tvguy]

I love it when TV gets mad.

The thing is, TV is defending a system that hasn't even worked for him particularly well.

Funny that's not how I see it and I'm the one who should know And who knew I was defending a system, what ever that is. It the system is a democracy and freedom ok yes I'm defending that but I sure as hell have never defended the Iraq occupation/war, Afghanistan or the Vietnam war which killed close friends of mine.

He was so poor in the beginning years he was forced to steal firewood off forest lands to get by, a fact he forgets when he espouses laws and rule so much now. He had some good years as a union member, a job that no longer seems to have a place for him. In the meantime, he's supported himself by buying and selling locally and off ebay, a fact I'd be highly surprised if his income tax forms reflect. In short, although TV has got by fine, it wasn't all legal, and it wasn't all easy either, and most of the ways aren't available to the common schmuck (and that's to TV's credit as a clever and enterprising guy, and I mean that earnestly). It's still a version of America which is not the face of democracy anyone particularly wants to see or is replicatable for most others, either.

He was so poor in the beginning? ha ha the beginning? what you call the beginning was the last biggest recession we have has since this one. Plus it was when I left a big city where jobs grew on trees and moved here because that was my choice.
I worked at a pear packing house, I worked gathering seed cones for the BLM, I sold Dungeness crab on the corner and I worked as a logger and I sold a crap load of firewood all the while waiting to start an apprenticeship which I eventually succeeded at doing.



As far as stealing firewood. You could easily get permits back then and during the time I cut firewood the most I was buying commercial permits from the BLM for 120 bucks for 10 cords. Did I steal wood, sure, sometimes I cut old logs that had been sitting for decades with out a permit or cut trees that were basically considered trash tress like madrone.That hardly makes me some criminal. I really don't know what point you are trying to make.
You think I have never smoked weed or driven drunk? Exactly where did I EVER say I was some law and order junkie? The truth is I simply don't always take one side or version as gospel like some here seem to do.

He had some good years as a union member, a job that no longer seems to have a place for him.

Yeah try 30 years in my union Ponder with a quarter of a million in a pension I have full control and a paid off house. Plus another will kick in at 62 plus social security will kick in What a great country this is for people who work hard.



And try and remember that we are in a recession.

In the meantime, he's supported himself by buying and selling locally and off ebay, a fact I'd be highly surprised if his income tax forms reflect

So that makes me Al Capone? I still don't see your point. When the hell did I say our "system" was perfect?
Just because I don't slam America at every possible chance?

Just because I don't slam America at every possible chance?

[Wonky]

TV;
Holy crap Leonard is there anything on this planet worth living for?

Yes, life itself is worth living for, especially if one is having a good time. And, to paraphrase Socrates ''an unexamined life is not worth living''.

Examining? that's what you do? or dissecting and always looking for cancers like some mad scientist.

Enlightening us my butt cheeks. He lives in his own world where all he Sees is the problems and gives zero credit where credit is due. It's no wonder you defend him you are one in the same, both champions of anything that's wrong with anything.

It's preposterous to assume anyone who doesn't share all of the Anti American views you two have is some rah- rah American. It's even more preposterous to call me that of all people.

.I think it's pretty damn funny that when someone makes a post about some great injustice that if I don't jump on the bandwagon and also feign outrage that I'm immediately pro cop , pro military or a rah-rah American.
I try very hard to be objective and to see both sides but apparently that's no fun on a forum full of ultra liberal suspicious anti everything arm chair quarterbacks.

Some POOR POOR homeless guy was given 15 years for armed bank robbery and I'm supposed to jump in line with everyone else and pity the poor man. Never mind that the story made ZERO mention of what this mans criminal record might have been.
Hell no lets not wait for any facts... lets lash out against the American justice system FIRST:wacko::wacko::wacko:

Wonky....And "The unexamined life", my dear TVg, is a problem pervasive in our country. You are obviously giving it another of your good humor blasts, and you too know it to be true.

I'm not sure you think you know What I think I said:wacko: For the umpteenth time I don't have a damn thing against dissent, or examining or if people don't want to be main stream. I don't freaking care.

But it chaps my ass to hear these guys day after day doing NOTHING but finding fault with EVERY FRIGGIN THING!!!

Our laws... A democracy.The police, the laws, the prisons, our heath care, sports, food, hunting , fishing, logging, breathing you freaking name it Wonky. I know you are VERY UNconfrontational but I know you know what I'm saying is true with these two yokels who hate everything there is about our country and then some.

Screw them and THEIR kind of "examining"

At the moment, I gotta go take a .....I mean I have to go check on the pot roast.
But I can't wait to get back and scorch your ass with some truth that will render you a hopeless pile of smoldering DNA. (It's my job )

Okay, I'm back. Man! A real...pot roast. Must have weighed 6 pounds.

So, you guys have been kicking around all the problems of the world. What I'm trying to figure out here is how "we lost it all".
One day, we are making stuff and during that time PEOPLE ALL OVER THE DAMN WORLD ARE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.
The next day we have shipped all the tools and whatever over to them and let them work for peanuts while we work for food stamps.
What kicked off the change?

Somebody...just take a guess if nothin else.

And Ponder, you are against everything except a nice warm girl body. TVg, you don't care what your position is as long as it's what Ponder if for. I'm gonna start takin' names and kickin' butts here pretty soon.

I want to know how we let it all get away without a fight. And why the hell are we no fighting now? THEY STOLE OUR FRIGGIN' JOBS! We should be in the streets, protesting in good order like the good citizens we are.

I mean damn! I got nothin' against the rich. Let them keep most of it. Just not ALL of it!

[illcommandante]

I sell locally. And, off of ebay. And, I give you a receipt. My competition skips the receipt because they are working under the table, to avoid ponying up their fair share. And, to protect the VA pensions they'd lose of it was known they had a good income. They're the "Early Birds" at your yard sale. Send 'em packing. They're thieves.

[Wonky]

After all this, I still don't understand where, or when, the tipping point came that all of a sudden made investors see the light of taking advantage of cheap labor. As I've tried to say, THAT CHEAP LABOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE!

But, to say again, in the 50's we were still doing it here the at home. Making stuff and paying people a decent wage. WHILE CHEAP LABOR WAS AVAILABLE ALL OVER THE GLOBE.

There MUST be something that was the "ah-ha" moment that gave the capitalists a reason to starting sending it all off-shore. Hell, they have always been greedy, so it can't be a simple discovery of just more.

Gotta be a reason.