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(07-08-2011, 04:30 PM)Wonky Wrote: (07-08-2011, 01:58 PM)tvguy Wrote: (07-08-2011, 01:18 PM)Crone Wrote: (07-08-2011, 12:08 PM)Wonky Wrote: YOU dream on.
Damned if I will surrender before the fight even starts.
WE, the PEOPLE, still have voice.
The suffering comes before the revolution. Let's not let the suffering get too intense before we find our collective voice.
Mellon, Carnegie, Morgan, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Standford, and the other robber barons thought they had us bought and paid for at one time.
History is on OUR side.
We do however need to get serious. Places like this can be of real value, depending on how we use it.
We may feel differently about some things, but I thank you for staying on the subject and offering an opinion on the subject, rather than commenting on other posters. ?
Wow Crone, really? Wonky was staying on the subject? when he said this?
And so, our conversation continues, at it's very lowest level of intelligent discourse,???
Yep.
I made reference to "this place" (not just this "topic")
No you didn't. Ot at least you didn't say that so most would assume you were talking about THIS thread.... And so, our conversation continues, at it's very lowest level of intelligent discourse, entertaining the sour and inaccurate accusations of the badly informed. We feed that same fire with rebuttal that, like gasoline on a fire, only raises the temperature of badly formed logic and lack of any meaningful content.
And yea, I do think that for the most part we use this place for goofy banter far more than for exchanging good information about working to make the changes we must make.
I understand the need for fun and games, for getting to know one another by sharing our less serious lives, and for developing relationships (to the extent that be done on a place like this). But as Crone has reminded us, we have very serious issues as citizens. Most live in interesting times. We are living in another period of critical times, when the definition of "class" is fast changing.
The subject is about our country changing and "being left behind". I think I was attentive to that and your comments that I wasn't are just wrong. I mean, I still love ya and all, but when you're wrong son, you sure can be wrong.
Wonky, Labman was responding directly to Crone when he mentioned that about half of Americans don't pay federal tax. HE was most certainly not off topic.
Cletus called him a name and that I can live with although iw was not the proper thing to say.
But then you chime in with this lecture complaining about the conversion being at it's very lowest level of intelligent discourse???
And now you get a pat on the back for staying on topic:wacko:
We went from Everything being fine to the very lowest level of intelligent discourse all because Cletus called Labman stupid?
And I'm supposed to understand that you were talking about "this place" if so were you ON TOPIC?
The funny thing is that I agree with you mostly about "this place" but I don't think I'm the only one tired of hearing your lectures that more and more seem to come out of no where.
I love ya man but that "when your wrong your wrong" thing tipped me over so I had to try one more time to make my case. I should have let it go, I know, I can't . That's my only flaw
And now I'll go back to what is the only good and redeeming thing about "this place"
GOOFY BANTER
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(07-08-2011, 05:54 PM)tvguy Wrote: (07-08-2011, 04:30 PM)Wonky Wrote: (07-08-2011, 01:58 PM)tvguy Wrote: (07-08-2011, 01:18 PM)Crone Wrote: (07-08-2011, 12:08 PM)Wonky Wrote: YOU dream on.
Damned if I will surrender before the fight even starts.
WE, the PEOPLE, still have voice.
The suffering comes before the revolution. Let's not let the suffering get too intense before we find our collective voice.
Mellon, Carnegie, Morgan, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Standford, and the other robber barons thought they had us bought and paid for at one time.
History is on OUR side.
We do however need to get serious. Places like this can be of real value, depending on how we use it.
We may feel differently about some things, but I thank you for staying on the subject and offering an opinion on the subject, rather than commenting on other posters. ?
Wow Crone, really? Wonky was staying on the subject? when he said this?
And so, our conversation continues, at it's very lowest level of intelligent discourse,???
Yep.
I made reference to "this place" (not just this "topic")
No you didn't. Ot at least you didn't say that so most would assume you were talking about THIS thread.... And so, our conversation continues, at it's very lowest level of intelligent discourse, entertaining the sour and inaccurate accusations of the badly informed. We feed that same fire with rebuttal that, like gasoline on a fire, only raises the temperature of badly formed logic and lack of any meaningful content.
And yea, I do think that for the most part we use this place for goofy banter far more than for exchanging good information about working to make the changes we must make.
I understand the need for fun and games, for getting to know one another by sharing our less serious lives, and for developing relationships (to the extent that be done on a place like this). But as Crone has reminded us, we have very serious issues as citizens. Most live in interesting times. We are living in another period of critical times, when the definition of "class" is fast changing.
The subject is about our country changing and "being left behind". I think I was attentive to that and your comments that I wasn't are just wrong. I mean, I still love ya and all, but when you're wrong son, you sure can be wrong.
Wonky, Labman was responding directly to Crone when he mentioned that about half of Americans don't pay federal tax. HE was most certainly not off topic.
Cletus called him a name and that I can live with although iw was not the proper thing to say.
But then you chime in with this lecture complaining about the conversion being at it's very lowest level of intelligent discourse???
And now you get a pat on the back for staying on topic:wacko:
We went from Everything being fine to the very lowest level of intelligent discourse all because Cletus called Labman stupid?
And I'm supposed to understand that you were talking about "this place" if so were you ON TOPIC?
The funny thing is that I agree with you mostly about "this place" but I don't think I'm the only one tired of hearing your lectures that more and more seem to come out of no where.
I love ya man but that "when your wrong your wrong" thing tipped me over so I had to try one more time to make my case. I should have let it go, I know, I can't . That's my only flaw
And now I'll go back to what is the only good and redeeming thing about "this place"
GOOFY BANTER
I surrender!
Cuff me, feed me, give me a warm cot, and a color TV. I CAN do the time!
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07-08-2011, 06:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2011, 06:42 PM by Yeshuah Hamashiach. Edited 1 time in total.)
All right everybody the whole idea is to work towards the goal so as to not offend Gasso by disregarding his rules .They are there for a purpose let us try to find ways of Bantering that are not a signal to others to join in and cross the line . We all know as a community how it works , one person does it and it spreads . There is a place for rough play go there if you feel the need. Thanks - JC 616
The National and World News forum is reserved for posts relating to news items and discussion relevant discussion surrounding them. Insults, ad hominem argument, and off-topic posts are NOT allowed. Posts of an extremely political or controversial nature should be made to the appropriate section in The Thunderdome.
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07-08-2011, 06:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2011, 06:45 PM by Yeshuah Hamashiach. Edited 1 time in total.)
(07-08-2011, 06:32 PM)Wonky Wrote: I surrender!
Cuff me, feed me, give me a warm cot, and a color TV. I CAN do the time! Wonk , if you feel the need , start a thread where you can vent and not feel the sting. You have your cycles of being pissy just like I do . Identify it when it hits and take it to the place. Thanks- JC 616
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07-08-2011, 07:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2011, 07:02 PM by Yeshuah Hamashiach. Edited 1 time in total.)
Whats good for Jesus is good for Ponder. Three strikes so far.
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(07-08-2011, 06:44 PM)Jesus Christ Wrote: Wonk , if you feel the need , start a thread where you can vent and not feel the sting. You have your cycles of being pissy just like I do . Identify it when it hits and take it to the place. Thanks- JC 616
Can't someone make him stop???? PULEEEEEZE????
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07-08-2011, 08:39 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2011, 08:43 PM by Yeshuah Hamashiach. Edited 6 times in total.)
Whats the matter Crone ? Here is a song for you , it is just what we need on the New RVF. Give peace a chance Crone.Maybe if we do this then the rest of the world will have something to catch up to us in .- JC 616\
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(07-08-2011, 08:14 PM)Crone Wrote: (07-08-2011, 06:44 PM)Jesus Christ Wrote: Wonk , if you feel the need , start a thread where you can vent and not feel the sting. You have your cycles of being pissy just like I do . Identify it when it hits and take it to the place. Thanks- JC 616
Can't someone make him stop???? PULEEEEEZE????
Hey, that's it! I'll start my own topic and set everyone else on "ignore".
Cycles of being "pissy"?
Oh.
Yea, okay. Pissy works.
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07-08-2011, 10:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2011, 10:08 PM by Yeshuah Hamashiach. Edited 2 times in total.)
I hope you are enjoying the new board Wonk . I can recall so many times when you wanted a nice place to sit , share and be civil with no foul language. Now you have it.
JC616
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07-08-2011, 10:46 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2011, 10:50 PM by cletus1. Edited 4 times in total.)
I hope you buy this because it is all I have to sell tonight. When I asked Labman if he watched Fox News to get stupid or if it came naturally it was of course a dig, but I meant that as a serious question.
The mantra at Fox News is that the poor are getting away with murder. Republican Senator Orin Hatch recently said that the poor aren't paying their share. Say WTF? Anyone that can say that with a straight face, while corporations are avoiding their fair share of taxes is aiding those corporations in real theft from the government IMO.
And those fools that fight on the side of wealthiest Americans to keep them from paying their fair share of taxes are brainwashed idiots. That is my opinion and I am just sharing it with you.
Do you want to know the definition of a stupid man relative to this discussion? It is a low or moderate income Republican that is against closing tax loop holes that benefit the wealthy because the shills on Fox News convinced him that doing so is a tax increase. Now that is a stupid man. In the future I'll change "stupid" to terribly misguided individual that lacks the ability to think on his own. Kinda long though huh?
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Hi CLetus , I don't watch Fox news except when there are clips on the net. I feel your pain man , hope your evening otherwise is going OK.
JC 616
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(07-08-2011, 09:12 AM)Labman Wrote: So when are the 47-50% of American who pay no federal income tax going to start paying their fair share?
Meanwhile the "poor" in our country seem to have no problem buying big screen TV's, cell phones, cars that consume not-so-cheap gasoline and expensive cigarettes. The term poor is all relative.
I agree that the term poor is relative. They are not poor enough for some people?
I would agree that 47% don't pay income tax. I would agree that is a talking point.
It is because it misleads. Most all Americans pay payroll tax. To put it another way the working poor do not get a paycheck that is gross pay. They do pay and as BBQ points out plenty of other taxes.
Let us not forget that Ronnie Reagan decided we should tax unemployment. What does that mean?
Labman don't worry too much about the Rich. When will hedge fund managers pay their fair share? 15% 0r 0% if they throw the money back in and spin the wheel?
My often repeated line (from me) I add ad nauseum ,
"Nothing is more admirable than the fortitude with which millionaires tolerate the disadvantages of their wealth."
— Rex Stout
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RE: The above two posts from Clete and Willie.
Serious rebuttal that is clear and takes the discussion straight to the problem we have (very often) here.
Bravo! As Leonard Cohen might be saying in Democracy is Coming To America, "it's the crack that lets the light in".
We are fighting ignorance (not stupidity) and bad information propagated by the likes of Fox News.
We can win. Arguments like those above will drown the propaganda that is dividing us.
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07-10-2011, 08:16 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2011, 08:28 AM by cletus1. Edited 2 times in total.)
(07-09-2011, 07:14 AM)Willie Krash Wrote: (07-08-2011, 09:12 AM)Labman Wrote: So when are the 47-50% of American who pay no federal income tax going to start paying their fair share?
Meanwhile the "poor" in our country seem to have no problem buying big screen TV's, cell phones, cars that consume not-so-cheap gasoline and expensive cigarettes. The term poor is all relative.
I agree that the term poor is relative. They are not poor enough for some people?
I would agree that 47% don't pay income tax. I would agree that is a talking point.
It is because it misleads. Most all Americans pay payroll tax. To put it another way the working poor do not get a paycheck that is gross pay. They do pay and as BBQ points out plenty of other taxes.
Let us not forget that Ronnie Reagan decided we should tax unemployment. What does that mean?
Labman don't worry too much about the Rich. When will hedge fund managers pay their fair share? 15% 0r 0% if they throw the money back in and spin the wheel?
My often repeated line (from me) I add ad nauseum ,
"Nothing is more admirable than the fortitude with which millionaires tolerate the disadvantages of their wealth."
— Rex Stout
Exactly Willie, Here is another thing I hear from worshipers of the rich. "10% of the people in this country pay 85% of the taxes." My conservative friend told me that the other day like he was opening my eyes to some injustice or inequality. IMO, that is a meaningless statement or at least it doesn't prove any inequality in taxation to me.
Their talking points are usually flimsy. As soon as you scratch the surface a bit you dont find any compelling information to make the case that the rich are over burdened. For example: 10% of income earners own 85% or the stocks and 85% of the wealth (and that IS a fact) so maybe they should pay 85% of the taxes. Actually, they pay around 70% according to some sources, but that is not the point.
The sad point is that poor and moderate income Republican are screaming about entitlement programs while they fight for the rich to keep a lousy 4 percent or so of the money George Bush gave away to them in tax reductions .:wacko:
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(07-10-2011, 08:16 AM)cletus1 Wrote: (07-09-2011, 07:14 AM)Willie Krash Wrote: (07-08-2011, 09:12 AM)Labman Wrote: So when are the 47-50% of American who pay no federal income tax going to start paying their fair share?
Meanwhile the "poor" in our country seem to have no problem buying big screen TV's, cell phones, cars that consume not-so-cheap gasoline and expensive cigarettes. The term poor is all relative.
I agree that the term poor is relative. They are not poor enough for some people?
I would agree that 47% don't pay income tax. I would agree that is a talking point.
It is because it misleads. Most all Americans pay payroll tax. To put it another way the working poor do not get a paycheck that is gross pay. They do pay and as BBQ points out plenty of other taxes.
Let us not forget that Ronnie Reagan decided we should tax unemployment. What does that mean?
Labman don't worry too much about the Rich. When will hedge fund managers pay their fair share? 15% 0r 0% if they throw the money back in and spin the wheel?
My often repeated line (from me) I add ad nauseum ,
"Nothing is more admirable than the fortitude with which millionaires tolerate the disadvantages of their wealth."
— Rex Stout
Exactly Willie, Here is another thing I hear from worshipers of the rich. "10% of the people in this country pay 85% of the taxes." My conservative friend told me that the other day like he was opening my eyes to some injustice or inequality. IMO, that is a meaningless statement or at least it doesn't prove any inequality in taxation to me.
Their talking points are usually flimsy. As soon as you scratch the surface a bit you dont find any compelling information to make the case that the rich are over burdened. For example: 10% of income earners own 85% or the stocks and 85% of the wealth (and that IS a fact) so maybe they should pay 85% of the taxes. Actually, they pay around 70% according to some sources, but that is not the point.
The sad point is that poor and moderate income Republican are screaming about entitlement programs while they fight for the rich to keep a lousy 4 percent or so of the money George Bush gave away to them in tax reductions .:wacko:
Exactly!
And more:
Percentages are misleading.
When discussing tax burden we should be using proportion.
Warren Buffett famously said his secretary's tax burden was higher than his own. This is what he meant. Her 35% tax burden left her with less disposable income. Buffett's taxes burden could be 90% and he would still have millions in disposable income. And because Buffett can escape tax liabilities in many areas (depreciation for example) his personal wealth is not threatened by taxes.
So, as seen in PROPORTION our tax system is unfair.
Very wealth people never go broke due to tax burdens. They go broke because of bad investments or too many spouses.
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(07-10-2011, 10:18 AM)Wonky Wrote: Exactly!
And more:
Percentages are misleading.
When discussing tax burden we should be using proportion.
Sounds like fuzzy math to me. Zero is still zero any way you cut it. Zero percentage means exactly that...zero. Proportion? Zero from nothin' is still nothin'.
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07-11-2011, 11:37 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2011, 11:38 AM by Crone. Edited 1 time in total.)
(07-11-2011, 10:46 AM)Justin Time Wrote: Sounds like fuzzy math to me. Zero is still zero any way you cut it. Zero percentage means exactly that...zero. Proportion? Zero from nothin' is still nothin'.
Republicans are adamant that big-government spending is out of control, that rich people just cannot afford tax increases, that jobs will only return when businesses are doing well again. Yet, the only people prospering in this economy are the rich, the corporations, who of course are the people purchasing (often with taxpayer money) the legislative largesse of the United States Congress.
Why should anyone except the rich pay for the financial devastation of the rich?
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(07-11-2011, 10:46 AM)Justin Time Wrote: (07-10-2011, 10:18 AM)Wonky Wrote: Exactly!
And more:
Percentages are misleading.
When discussing tax burden we should be using proportion.
Sounds like fuzzy math to me. Zero is still zero any way you cut it. Zero percentage means exactly that...zero. Proportion? Zero from nothin' is still nothin'.
Well, we could talk about negative numbers. But not now.
Percentage: Parts of 100.
Proportion: : the relation of one part to another or to the whole with respect to magnitude, quantity, or degree.
Clear enough?
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(07-11-2011, 11:43 AM)Wonky Wrote: (07-11-2011, 10:46 AM)Justin Time Wrote: (07-10-2011, 10:18 AM)Wonky Wrote: Exactly!
And more:
Percentages are misleading.
When discussing tax burden we should be using proportion.
Sounds like fuzzy math to me. Zero is still zero any way you cut it. Zero percentage means exactly that...zero. Proportion? Zero from nothin' is still nothin'.
Well, we could talk about negative numbers. But not now.
Percentage: Parts of 100.
Proportion: : the relation of one part to another or to the whole with respect to magnitude, quantity, or degree.
Clear enough?
How about a flat tax? No deductions are EVERYONE pays 20%. Now that is fair. Shared sacrifice as the president and his people like to say.
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