Ashland Gun Club neighbors threaten lawsuit over lead debris and danger to the enviro

[PonderThis]

I know TV thinks lead doesn't migrate and spent bullets do no harm, kind of like metals returning to the earth from which they came or somethin', but the Ashland Gun Club is about to find out differently: http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/in...s_thr.html

Excerpt: "People living near the Ashland Gun Club's firing range say lead shot, shells and clay target debris is accumulating in the ground and water and warned they'll sue over the "imminent and substantial endangerment" to the environment.

The legal warning is the latest blow in a dispute that has simmered for several years, and comes as the Ashland City Council considers Tuesday whether to renew the club's lease on city-owned land.

Gun Club President Chuck Parlier said the club has used the shooting range since 1968 and the three people behind the threatened lawsuit are relative newcomers who "decided we shouldn't be there."

Parlier said the club wants to remove lead from the property but won't take on the expensive work unless its lease is renewed. "We've been negotiating for quite awhile," he said. "We've been there 43 years, long before anyone thought lead was a problem."

Gun clubs across the country have come to exactly that conclusion, and increasingly are voluntarily "mining" the ranges for spent lead in order to avoid lawsuits or cleanup orders from regulating agencies.

The Salem Gun Club in 2010 contracted with a company that dug up, sifted and hauled away 500,000 pounds of lead shotgun pellets -- residue from nearly 40 years of shooting. Other shooting clubs in the Portland area have done the same.

The cleanup work also has been spurred by the demand for scrap metal, which has made the work profitable. Ranges now can have their property cleaned and receive a share of the revenue in the process.

Lead is a toxic substance. The federal Environmental Protection Agency says shooting at the nation's 9,000 non-military ranges leaves untold millions of pounds of lead in the ground annually. Ducks and geese can die if they swallow shotgun pellets to aid digestion, as they do with pebbles.

If the lead oxidizes, it can leach into the groundwater and contaminate wells or streams. One Oregon gun club officials said the presence of lead is an "invisible weight" hanging over shooting ranges.

Regulation is uneven, however. Under federal environmental regulations, lead isn't considered a hazardous waste when a weapon is fired, because it's being used for its intended purpose. But once a shooting range ceases operation, the lead left behind is classified as hazardous waste that must be removed.

The EPA and Oregon's Department of Environmental Quality recommend ranges follow a "best practices" document, but don't get involved unless contaminated soil or water is found. Monitoring, and legal action, usually begins with neighbors or environmental groups.

The Douglas Ridge Rifle Club, operating near Eagle Creek in Clackamas County since 1955, settled a 2007 lawsuit by agreeing to remove lead from earthen berms behind its targets and from a drainage ditch that crosses the range. The state DEQ in 2010 ordered the club to take samples, monitor the ditch and follow the EPA's guidelines.

In the Ashland case, attorney Thomas Dimitre alleges contaminants from the gun club enter wetlands and Emigrant Creek. Parlier, the club president, denies the allegation. The DEQ determined earlier in the case that a previous soil and groundwater test was inadequate.

The attorney's letter to the gun club and city says they've violated the federal Clean Water Act, Endangered Species Act and Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. Dimitre represents Leon Pyle, Cathy DeForest and Edward Kerwin."

[hillclimber]

Ashland...figures

[tvguy]

I know TV thinks lead doesn't migrate and spent bullets do no harm

Yes Ponder that because I actually researched the issue. Tell me where in this article does it say there is polluted ground water?? did I miss that part?

The shooting range has been there since 1969 and the best these people can say is
If the lead oxidizes, it can leach into the groundwater and contaminate wells or streams.

It can??? why hasn't it YET?

And the gun club people have agreed to remove the accumulated lead if they get their lease renewed so where the freaking problem?

I would have expected to see lots of info showing how spent bullets have polluted ground water else where. But I didn't see that.

[PonderThis]

I reckon the jury is the one who'll be lookin'.

And holding out cleaning up the property unless they get a lease renewal first? Well waa waa waa. I'd slap 'em with a lawsuit and tell them clean it up first and then we'll decide whether we'll renew your asses or not. Besides, it looks like they might even make a profit at it. I swear people that shoot guns for recreation are already lead damaged anyway.

[tvguy]

I reckon the jury is the one who'll be lookin'.

And holding out cleaning up the property unless they get a lease renewal first? Well waa waa waa. I'd slap 'em with a lawsuit and tell them clean it up first and then we'll decide whether we'll renew your asses or not. Besides, it looks like they might even make a profit at it. I swear people that shoot guns for recreation are already lead damaged anyway.

Wow you fit right in with the far left radicals don't you. No surprise actually. So you think they should be forced to clean up something regardless? No matter if it's actually doing any harm or not?

Actually looking at all the facts and gathering information is unnecessary when you hate guns and bullets right?

[PonderThis]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

[Wonky]

I reckon the jury is the one who'll be lookin'.

And holding out cleaning up the property unless they get a lease renewal first? Well waa waa waa. I'd slap 'em with a lawsuit and tell them clean it up first and then we'll decide whether we'll renew your asses or not. Besides, it looks like they might even make a profit at it. I swear people that shoot guns for recreation are already lead damaged anyway.

Wow you fit right in with the far left radicals don't you. No surprise actually. So you think they should be forced to clean up something regardless? No matter if it's actually doing any harm or not?

Actually looking at all the facts and gathering information is unnecessary when you hate guns and bullets right?

Well ya,
But...
If I no longer have any lead in my pencil, is okay to still practice shooting?

[Crone]

I reckon the jury is the one who'll be lookin'.

And holding out cleaning up the property unless they get a lease renewal first? Well waa waa waa. I'd slap 'em with a lawsuit and tell them clean it up first and then we'll decide whether we'll renew your asses or not. Besides, it looks like they might even make a profit at it. I swear people that shoot guns for recreation are already lead damaged anyway.

I think you're onto something, Ponder.
If they can do it and even profit monetarily from it, what's the problem?

[Uncle]

As I have established in the past, I am no friend of guns. But it seems to me that TV is right. An established business with that many years behind it should not be burdened with unnecessary costs unless and until the suspicions become actual facts. It sounds like "outsiders" have come from a place already over regulated and taxed, and are now certain that they should bring that enlightened way of life to our valley.

That being said, IF they prove the environmental harm, I will rejoice in shutting down a shooting outlet. Maybe with less places to shoot, less people will bother with guns.

[tvguy]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

That's too funny, just because other gun clubs are forced to do something that is proof that this one needs to do something?

what the hell is wrong with simply proving that this gun club is actually doing anything harmful?? that's all I'm asking for Pete's sake. Is that so freaking unreasonable?

You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore

That comment actually shows who the real nut is. You WANT to believe that spent bullets on the ground pose a hazard on forest lands or your land. So you do.
And the hell with any kind of proof or facts.

[tvguy]

As I have established in the past, I am no friend of guns. But it seems to me that TV is right. An established business with that many years behind it should not be burdened with unnecessary costs unless and until the suspicions become actual facts. It sounds like "outsiders" have come from a place already over regulated and taxed, and are now certain that they should bring that enlightened way of life to our valley.

.

Now THAT makes total sense, thank you.

That being said, IF they prove the environmental harm, I will rejoice in shutting down a shooting outlet. Maybe with less places to shoot, less people will bother with guns

Well you were on a roll until this part. Why would the gun range need to close? IF it is determined that the lead on the ground is a real hazard then all they have top do is clean it up.

And you other comment suggests that you assume guns are bad in some way yet this particular gun range appears to be for skeet shooting with shotguns. That is a sport my friend and it keeps your skills sharp for hunting. Around here that would mean almost always bird hunting, ducks geese. That all brings in revenue for fish and game, wildlife habitat and all kinds of goods things

I don't really know why anyone cares about bird hunters with their shotguns.

[Wonky]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

That's too funny, just because other gun clubs are forced to do something that is proof that this one needs to do something?

what the hell is wrong with simply proving that this gun club is actually doing anything harmful?? that's all I'm asking for Pete's sake. Is that so freaking unreasonable?

You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore

That comment actually shows who the real nut is. You WANT to believe that spent bullets on the ground pose a hazard on forest lands or your land. So you do.
And the hell with any kind of proof or facts.

Ya know something TVg, you really are a very likeable guy. I mean, you're funny, witty, a good family man who loves dogs, never fart at weddings...all that.

And still...

You've got this obsession with FACTS. Facts this, facts that. Hell if we all just were to deal with facts, and facts alone, the world would be on boring place.

Loosen up. Go shoot your gun at Ponders place. God knows he has more useless land than the Middle East. Ponder would do the same, but the noise scares him.
Hi can deal with heavy machinery, but guns smell bad too.
Actually, Ponder is a gun nut. He thinks the government is after him for destroying perfectly good straw.

So give up the FACTS crap. It stifles conversation.

[tvguy]

I'm gonna put a new beer on the market. You know the tequila with the worm in the bottle? I'm gonna put a real freaking lead bullet in every beer.
That way all us gun nuts can show the world that a little lead in yer pencil never hurt no one.
Who knows how far I can go with this, lead flavored cashews would be good? lead syrup on your ice dream. How about some vinegar and lead chips with that beer?

BTW I did fart at a wedding, my own . It was when I was sposed to say, "I DO". It was one of those double shots and almost sounded like "I do".
My buddies thought it was awesome.

[Wonky]

I'm gonna put a new beer on the market. You know the tequila with the worm in the bottle? I'm gonna put a real freaking lead bullet in every beer.
That way all us gun nuts can show the world that a little lead in yer pencil never hurt no one.
Who knows how far I can go with this, lead flavored cashews would be good? lead syrup on your ice dream. How about some vinegar and lead chips with that beer?

BTW I did fart at a wedding, my own . It was when I was sposed to say, "I DO". It was one of those double shots and almost sounded like "I do".
My buddies thought it was awesome.

Ah, man!
I mean I've always had great respect for you.
But now?
Now, man, you are my freakin' HERO!

[hillclimber]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

My lead bullets and shot, also get scattered over lots of forest land, some river bottoms and stream beds.. How are you going to stop me??

[PonderThis]

Shoot you, most likely.

[PonderThis]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

That's too funny, just because other gun clubs are forced to do something that is proof that this one needs to do something?

what the hell is wrong with simply proving that this gun club is actually doing anything harmful?? that's all I'm asking for Pete's sake. Is that so freaking unreasonable?

You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore

That comment actually shows who the real nut is. You WANT to believe that spent bullets on the ground pose a hazard on forest lands or your land. So you do.
And the hell with any kind of proof or facts.

You can't seem to grasp the fact it's not my job to supply proof here, it's the attorney's doing the suing, and they must think they have plenty of proof or they wouldn't be doing it (unless it's all a giant bluff, and, well, we'll see where that goes). I'm quite certain the facts will come out in court, and, I'd bet money it's not going to go well for the gun club, either. Want to make a little wager here, or do you just want to insist you know all the facts but the rest of us are too stupid to figure it out?

[Leonard]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

My lead bullets and shot, also get scattered over lots of forest land, some river bottoms and stream beds.. How are you going to stop me??

Bow and Arrow???

[tvguy]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

That's too funny, just because other gun clubs are forced to do something that is proof that this one needs to do something?

what the hell is wrong with simply proving that this gun club is actually doing anything harmful?? that's all I'm asking for Pete's sake. Is that so freaking unreasonable?

You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore

That comment actually shows who the real nut is. You WANT to believe that spent bullets on the ground pose a hazard on forest lands or your land. So you do.
And the hell with any kind of proof or facts.

You can't seem to grasp the fact it's not my job to supply proof here, it's the attorney's doing the suing, and they must think they have plenty of proof or they wouldn't be doing it (unless it's all a giant bluff, and, well, we'll see where that goes). I'm quite certain the facts will come out in court, and, I'd bet money it's not going to go well for the gun club, either. Want to make a little wager here, or do you just want to insist you know all the facts but the rest of us are too stupid to figure it out?

Wow man you are freaking missing the whole point. YOU are the one who wants to see some action WITH OUT any facts. You can't provide any facts that show there is any harm being done. I have not insisted that I have any facts, are you thick or what?

I have simply read what has been provided to me here and from the article and I'm honest and forth right enough to admit that I don't really know if the lead is actually doing any harm.

You on the other hand don't give a shit as long as the big bad guys with the guns get punished. As far as I'm concerned that is STUPID. deciding you know something that is by no means factual is stupid.

I see this over and over on this forum, people like you don't five a damn about the truth or facts if it gets in the way of your anti gun anti hunting anti cop anti USA mentality.


I wonder if any of these Ashland Einsteins have actually tested the wells for lead contamination that are near this gun range???

Gee whizz Wally ya think that might be a good idea? Of course they either have not OR they did and found nothing OTHERWISE they would have shown us some REAL evidence. I guess thats just too much to ask for

[tvguy]

No I say after all the facts and information are in, then sue 'em. It sounds like the attorney's are already at least that far.

And the article mentions gun clubs throughout the country are having to go through this. Guess what? You gun nuts can't litter the earth with your garbage anymore.

My lead bullets and shot, also get scattered over lots of forest land, some river bottoms and stream beds.. How are you going to stop me??

As far as I know lead sinkers do nothing to harm our rivers and streams. As far as bullets and shot the ONLY thing negative is when an animal ingests the lead. That's why you can't use lead shot on federal land. I think lead shot should be banned on all lands.

How are they going to stop you? Simple, with legislation banning the use of lead projectiles