Salt, science and energy.
#1
Just to bring this out of the cat candle thread.

What are some thoughts on alternative energy and transportation. Many things will change in the near future and time to let go of your old life styles.

Ponder is playing with alternative structures.
I'm interested in the new LED lighting available.

Future nuclear power stations should be based on Thorium reactors.

Wind mills and solar need to be reviewed, not given up on, but address major issues before going gun-ho.

wind mill on fire.
I believe something went wrong in the transmission box
[Image: 11.jpg]
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#2
(12-30-2011, 01:41 PM)PonderThis Wrote: Well, I know that now. At the time, I was using capacitors to "excite" the windings of 3 phase motors (overspeeding them 5% to make them become alternators instead), and I was measuring higher amperages going back to the windings, far higher amperage readings than I was getting actually going to my transformers and battery bank (where I was storing the power). I was mesmerized with the idea of capturing that "free" amperage somehow (or, at least a portion of it), as there seemed to be more power coming out of a 3 phase motor than it was taking to run it. I didn't realize that amperage going back to the windings wasn't usable for anything, it only was measurable. I still don't know what's up with that, but I accept that my pursuits of "free energy" had some major holes in them so far. Smiling



Energy is a hard concept.
The surface of the sun is very hot and you would think if I was there I could get some energy. but you'd find out you couldn't use it. You have no cold place to flow the heat to, to extract energy.
Energy comes from difference in energy levels. Hot to cold, 10 feet in elevation to ground level, 120 volts to 0 volts. ...etc.
Most of our energy we use delivered by wire comes from temperature difference (internal combustion engine) or from elevation potential (hydro-electric)

When thinking "free energy" it helps to think aboute what form you want to convert too.
electricity for running motors and electronics, or Heat , hot air mostly.
If heat , how hot? oven for cooking, hot water, room heating.
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#3
Well, I'm currently most mesmerized with the idea of using parabolic collectors to gather heat and then do various things with that heat, among them running Organic Rankine Generators (which is, using a refrigerant gas that boils in the '60's F. to run a turbine to generate electricity, then cooling that gas down again.) I think I've run this by the forum previously though. I wonder if the temperature differential between earth temperatures and rooftop temperatures might be enough to make houses power themselves, but I have no idea if that's really practical or only a personal theory. I have a weblink for a company that has turbines now they say will run on a 125 degree temperature differential.

I know TV is experimenting with solar collectors consisting of window screen inside sealed insulated boxes with glass on top, and that's a more simple way of collecting solar heat.
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#4
The greater the temperature difference the more efficiency you get. Some issue with roof top temp to ground temp is thermal conductivity. you pump the heat under ground and now it heats the ground up around your pipes, until that heat dissipates, you've lost your temperature difference, same thing on the roof.
Water is a could conductor and vessel to dump or extract heat. Heat exchange water pipes on the bottom of a holding pond could be real useful in a home energy system.

Also your thought of using a refrigerant can be costly. Why not just run a steam turbine with solar heated water. you don't recycle the water like you would have to with a refrigerant.
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#5
Because often times you might only get, say, 180 degrees out of your solar panels, not enough to create steam. If you could always get steam, a "sterling engine" is what I see mentioned.

Yes, a pond would be good, and also perhaps the water at the bottom of wells.
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#6
There are a lot of old parabolic dishes to be had. I thought about lining them with Al foil. Not sure what to use for a laminate. You want one of the solid dishes.
I have an old one with holes for the wind, which would probably not work well.


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#7
Vinyl sign mirror material is good. Lots of people have done this with old satellite dishes, and it works well. One problem I don't like is the focal point is beyond the dish and provides a potential burn hazard, both for humans working there and if it accidently gets aimed at something flammable when it's not being used and later the sun changes position. There's also the "flash hazard", of being in front of it at that concentrated point. In addition, that type of parabolic collector needs to constantly "track" the sun. as it moves from left to right across the sky. Granted, all those problems can be dealt with, and many have done this.

However, I'm more interested in parabolic collectors shaped more like these:

[Image: sol6.gif]

However, even those have to track the sun, so for home use I'm more intrigued by this design, oriented east and west, which is said to not need any tracking. OK, granted, some say this design would have higher "cosign" losses, but the simplicity seems like it might outweigh the losses for home use:

[Image: how5.jpg]

[Image: how6.jpg]

[Image: how8.jpg]
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#8
Double parabolic trench is a good design, you only need to adjust it for the seasonal change in the sun path. How do you propose to make the shape, do they sell pre-shaped panels? Or do you plan on making wooden forms and sheet metal.
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#9
I'll be damned if I know. This is as far as I've gotten. The only sheet metal guy I've talked to is the one that sells roofing in Merlin, and he didn't have the slightest idea.

Some have suggested fiberglass mockups, and then make copies using that as a mold. I'm intrigued with paper mache', which supposedly has been used for some solar collectors in India, I have no idea how or how to make it hold up to the weather either one.

At this point I've told some of my better ideas, imho. I don't really know where to go from here, frankly. That's one reason I'm glad you brought this stuff up. I think there's answers to the future in this stuff, but I'm not sure exactly how yet.

BTW, I put my 3 phase motor as generator schematic on the other thread, if that was interesting to you (and, I may have given you that as a pm before, too).
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#10
I'm thinking a mold 10' long to match 10' pipe length.
paper mache' would work.
Shape a large heavy gage aluminum foil (I've seen 4' wide rolls) over the mold.
Place box around mold and fill with expanding foam.
Should end up with a box half filled with foam with the parabolic shape lined in shiny foil.

Just think'en,
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#11
It's better if the whole thing is capped with glass or some clear material too for protection. The choice of collection tube could be some metal tubing, like copper or aluminum, or it could be glass vacuum tubes with an inner collection area made special for the purpose. Those are more efficient (especially in cold weather or windy conditions) but might lose their vacuums (and thus, their extra-efficiency) in 20 years or so. Those are all design considerations.

This is also where my solar barbecue ideas come into play. I can envision the same kind of collector design (with perhaps 2 meters of collection area) might be just about right. It really all hinges on finding a cheap way to manufacture these collectors.

Vinyl sign material in a "chrome" or "mirror" finish is said to be longer lasting and more reflective than aluminum foil, which tarnishes.
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#12
There is some material that is 98% reflective, some plastic film, not sure on cost.
Glass collection tubes sound OK other than they break easy. freezing is always an issue.
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#13
Looked at your schematic, not sure why your thinking free energy, what's turning the 3 phase motor that you converted to a generator.
Your schematic seems viable, A generator is just moving a conductor past a magnetic field. if you loop your conductor you get that much more for each loop.
It is also depended on the strength of the magnetic field. They use a electric magnet to generate a stronger magnetic field. In a car this is the field winding. I believe that your three phase motor with some residual magnetism is inducing a current which you transfer to the other coil with the capacitor. this increase the field in that coil which in turn generates more power. A self exciting field.
the capacitor and coil of the motor will have a 180 phase shift in voltage.
I imagine that for a given capacitor you use there is an optimal speed.
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#14
It wasn't free energy, I turned it with this:

[Image: CameraAugust004.jpg]

OK, the embarrassing thing I did wrong was, when I first got a clamp-on amp meter, I was measuring amperage between the capacitors and the transformers (the true reading of what the waterwheel could produce, depending on water flow over the wheel), but then I got sidetracked measuring the amperage between the capacitors and the motor itself (being used as generator). That was a larger amperage, if I remember right, and I was mesmerized with trying to capture it somehow. I kept replacing the motors with bigger ones, measuring higher amperages between the motor and the capacitors each time. I thought I was onto some sort of hidden energy others couldn't figure. OK, I was wrong. I admit it. I probably wasted a few thousand dollars on that idea. It's a good thing others have worked out OK. Smiling

There is an optimal capacitance involved for each motor, but wide tolerance with slight differences in performance too. I had a set of 3 capacitors in about 10 sizes it seems, enough for future tests too. Smiling
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#15
Quote: 'chuck white'


Heat exchange water pipes on the bottom of a holding pond could be real useful in a home energy system.

This is being done quite a bit using a heat pump. In the winter the heat is removed from the pond and in the summer the heat is removed from the house and released in to the pond.
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#16
I would have tried to use a car generator instead of a three phase motor, (unless you just happen to have them laying around).
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#17
They don't make handy gear reduction units that bolt up to car alternators, the bearings in car alternators typically wear out on an annual or more often basis when they're run 24/7 versus the industrial bullet-proof engineering and economy that goes with 3 phase motors (typical 10 year+ lifespan plus dirt cheap to buy).

That's only part of it though. Generating at 12 volts DC involves exceedingly thick copper wires when run any distance, and long distances fail outright. By comparison large amperages can be sent long distance over common 3/12 wire, for example, when the voltages are 3 phase and high. For a lot of off-grid type properties, where the power source might be compared to where the house is located would make this totally suitable. I suppose I had bigger pictures in mind here.
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#18
(12-31-2011, 12:16 PM)tvguy Wrote:
Quote: 'chuck white'


Heat exchange water pipes on the bottom of a holding pond could be real useful in a home energy system.

This is being done quite a bit using a heat pump. In the winter the heat is removed from the pond and in the summer the heat is removed from the house and released in to the pond.

Pacific Scientific in Merlin, did this with a pond out in front of their building. I understand that in the coldest part of winter, the pond completely froze and they had to switch to heating with gas or electric, but for the most part, worked well.
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#19
Quote:PonderThis Offline
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RE: Salt, science and energy.
Vinyl sign mirror material is good. Lots of people have done this with old satellite dishes, and it works well. One problem I don't like is the focal point is beyond the dish and provides a potential burn hazard, both for humans working there and if it accidently gets aimed at something flammable when it's not being used and later the sun changes position. There's also the "flash hazard", of being in front of it at that concentrated point. In addition, that type of parabolic collector needs to constantly "track" the sun. as it moves from left to right across the sky. Granted, all those problems can be dealt with, and many have done this.

I've made a couple parabolic heat collectors out of old dishes and the problems you describe are not really problems at all.
First of all I used mylar, I don't know how Vinyl sign mirror material could work. how do you form it to the dish?
Anyway yes the focal point is a couple of feet beyond the dish but ONLY a couple feet past.
If you have a 6 or 12 feet dish it has to point precisely straight at the sun for any high temps in the focal point. Past that focal point there is virtually no heat so I don't see how you could possibly accidentally catch anything on fire unless it was several feet off the ground and in line with the center of the dish. The only way for anything to be there is if you put it there.

With The ones I've made the focal point is not a pin point that will instantly burn you. If that was the case I would have been burned several times.

I wish it did work the way you think. When I first made one my idea was to put a mirror at the focal point and reflect the heat (ray) back through the center of the dish to another mirror and make an evil death rayLaughing
It doesn't work that way at allSad


I think the trough parabolic collector is totally the way to go because you get one long horizontal focal point. plus like you said they don't have to track the sun as much as a dish
But it was a lot of fun to make the satellite dish version and play with itBig Grin

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#20
The focus point should be where the feed horn sits, If you dish still has the mount for the feed horn this is where you would heat your water at.
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