GREAT OCCUPY INTERVIEW OF EDUCATED YOUNG MAN

[DUNNO]

Please watch until the end, I promise it will be worth it.

I came back and watched it because you said it would be worth watching till the end. You lied.

Near the end the reporter asked the person being interviewed whether he owned his own body. It got me thinking about freedom again. Do you own your own body? Do other women own their own bodies? Exactly!

That's ten minutes I'll never get back.

You really have to work at it to miss the point.

Did it get you thinking about freedom and the deep question as to "whether or not" a woman owns her own body? Or was it just a way to change the subject from what was in front of you, that this kid has been programmed by Communist Dinosaurs. The reason it is brought to the Liberal's attention is to make you aware that these Communist Dinosaurs are hiding in your tents. Or are you all too far gone to care? Since you can't stand that a conservative is ever right about anything, why not just police your own instead. Pretending you can't see the dinosaurs in the room, well, most of America can now, thanks to the internet coverage of OCCUPY.

[Clone]

You know you positions are ridiculous. Did you actually miss the last 100 years of history? I am not sure that actually being able to evaluate the last 100 years of history and the attending history of anarchism can be considered an "instant reaction" Russians starved in the streets under Marxism that came about through anarchism. The first in line to take hold of the government of Russia after the Tsar was deposed were the Mensheviks. I bet you never heard of them. That is because they were pulled down by the Bolsheviks who were anarchists. They sure delivered.
Then there was Mao and the 45 million he killed in 4 years. Did you miss history that day?

Why do you think you are so superior you can call me ridiculous and resort to calling me uneducated?

YOU are the one who always takes this all the way back to Russia and China and speak of the horrors of those regimes.

Do you, oh Ms. Pain in the Butt, Ms. Disrespectfrul truly feel the residents of Norway, Sweden, France, etc. are in danger of a Menshevick takeover?

They freely hold elections on a regular basis. They choose who leads them. The citizens get a living wage and have free medical care.

Is this why you always want to go back in history to the pain and suffering?

You can't admit that most of the industrialized world is now operating under a form of socialism and are happy about it? Their children are educated; they have affordable day care.

America is sucking hind tit; the jobs are coming back from China because Americans are now desperate enough to work for minimum wage.

How anyone can be aware of what is happening here and still preach that the Occupiers have to be beat down is not thinking clearly.

As far as I can tell, all of us here on RVF ARE the 99%

Iceland threw out the banks and their credit rating is already back up.

There ARE solutions.

And you, missy, need to take a good look in the mirror. You are the one who is started a Reply with saying my position is ridiculous and that I have no sense of history. But, I know, you're playing to the crowd...

[DUNNO]

You know you positions are ridiculous. Did you actually miss the last 100 years of history? I am not sure that actually being able to evaluate the last 100 years of history and the attending history of anarchism can be considered an "instant reaction" Russians starved in the streets under Marxism that came about through anarchism. The first in line to take hold of the government of Russia after the Tsar was deposed were the Mensheviks. I bet you never heard of them. That is because they were pulled down by the Bolsheviks who were anarchists. They sure delivered.
Then there was Mao and the 45 million he killed in 4 years. Did you miss history that day?

Why do you think you are so superior you can call me ridiculous and resort to calling me uneducated?

YOU are the one who always takes this all the way back to Russia and China and speak of the horrors of those regimes.

Do you, oh Ms. Pain in the Butt, Ms. Disrespectfrul truly feel the residents of Norway, Sweden, France, etc. are in danger of a Menshevick takeover?

They freely hold elections on a regular basis. They choose who leads them. The citizens get a living wage and have free medical care.

Is this why you always want to go back in history to the pain and suffering?

You can't admit that most of the industrialized world is now operating under a form of socialism and are happy about it? Their children are educated; they have affordable day care.

America is sucking hind tit; the jobs are coming back from China because Americans are now desperate enough to work for minimum wage.

How anyone can be aware of what is happening here and still preach that the Occupiers have to be beat down is not thinking clearly.

As far as I can tell, all of us here on RVF ARE the 99%

Iceland threw out the banks and their credit rating is already back up.

There ARE solutions.

Missing the point, here goes, it is hard to fill in the blanks for you because it spans such a huge portion of history. The Mensheviks, never mind, there is too much missing for me to explain it to you, you can google it.
The point is, the Mensheviks were the party of moderation after the fall of the Tsar, but they could not hold power and Lenin wouldn't stop for anything less that complete anarchism. Certainly you know what the results were?


You take offense that I say you are not educated in the matters you profess to understand, but you know that is true. I tell you this because I choose to believe you are simply uneducated rather than evil, and that you don't really understand that when you rejoice at Mayday being celebrated, you are literally ignoring the millions of deaths that were the result of these same factions coming to power in these countries.

[DUNNO]

You know you positions are ridiculous. Did you actually miss the last 100 years of history? I am not sure that actually being able to evaluate the last 100 years of history and the attending history of anarchism can be considered an "instant reaction" Russians starved in the streets under Marxism that came about through anarchism. The first in line to take hold of the government of Russia after the Tsar was deposed were the Mensheviks. I bet you never heard of them. That is because they were pulled down by the Bolsheviks who were anarchists. They sure delivered.
Then there was Mao and the 45 million he killed in 4 years. Did you miss history that day?

Why do you think you are so superior you can call me ridiculous and resort to calling me uneducated?

YOU are the one who always takes this all the way back to Russia and China and speak of the horrors of those regimes.

Do you, oh Ms. Pain in the Butt, Ms. Disrespectfrul truly feel the residents of Norway, Sweden, France, etc. are in danger of a Menshevick takeover?

They freely hold elections on a regular basis. They choose who leads them. The citizens get a living wage and have free medical care.

Is this why you always want to go back in history to the pain and suffering?

You can't admit that most of the industrialized world is now operating under a form of socialism and are happy about it? Their children are educated; they have affordable day care.

America is sucking hind tit; the jobs are coming back from China because Americans are now desperate enough to work for minimum wage.

How anyone can be aware of what is happening here and still preach that the Occupiers have to be beat down is not thinking clearly.

As far as I can tell, all of us here on RVF ARE the 99%

Iceland threw out the banks and their credit rating is already back up.

There ARE solutions.

And you, missy, need to take a good look in the mirror. You are the one who is started a Reply with saying my position is ridiculous and that I have no sense of history. But, I know, you're playing to the crowd...

Don't put your words in my mouth, please. Or apply your paradigms to my positions. I have listened patiently to the OCCUPIERS. There were plenty of things that I would have applauded them for if I had heard anything like what I think needed to be said.
What I saw, like many Americans, were foolish babblers, stoners, racists, what had to have been the children of Public Employees, not complaining that any principles had been violated, but only wanting their rice bowls filled by the government. Then came the prodigy of what can only be an enclave of Communist Dinosaurs that have been being housed and fed on speakers fees in the Universities, waving the flags under which mass murders marched.

You are right about one thing, there are solutions but there are too many people who have deluded themselves into repeating inane slogans that can not take the place of steady reason.

[Clone]

You take offense that I say you are not educated in the matters you profess to understand, but you know that is true. I tell you this because I choose to believe you are simply uneducated rather than evil, and that you don't really understand that when you rejoice at Mayday being celebrated, you are literally ignoring the millions of deaths that were the result of these same factions coming to power in these countries.

This conversation cannot be sustained when one part of it, that being you, remains so stuck in your insistence on comparing anything I may respect or believe in to the Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China.

There is a middle here, and most of Europe has achieved it.

You're stuck in the past and brag about it.

Goodnight

[DUNNO]

Let me explain to you something that can be learned by a careful study of history.
That men are governed best by civilized men of moderation.
Did you know that the Mensheviks were the moderates? They were stomped out and the power hungry Bolsheviks took over and we all know how that turned out.
Did you know that Yassar Arafat and his ilk murdered the moderate Palestinian leadership? and from that time until today, the Palestinian people have been led by men who have no wisdom? how is that working out for them?
Do you think it is a moderate position to spit in the face of 80% of Americans, who Noam Chomsky says believe the Bible is the true word of God? Do you think it is moderate to hold 80% of Americans in disdain? What if it is only 50%, do you think that America can be piloted with 50% of the people disenfranchised?
How do you propose to seize control of the government so it can be fashioned into your brave new world? Would you be surprised to find out that you won't really be consulted? That there are people who have been working on the new 'replacement' government for years and you are just playing into their hands?
Like I said, I am saying these things to you because I do believe you are only ignorant, not evil.

But there is a proverb: Ignorance and wickedness, quite often have the same result.

[DUNNO]

You take offense that I say you are not educated in the matters you profess to understand, but you know that is true. I tell you this because I choose to believe you are simply uneducated rather than evil, and that you don't really understand that when you rejoice at Mayday being celebrated, you are literally ignoring the millions of deaths that were the result of these same factions coming to power in these countries.

This conversation cannot be sustained when one part of it, that being you, remains so stuck in your insistence on comparing anything I may respect or believe in to the Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China.

There is a middle here, and most of Europe has achieved it.

You're stuck in the past and brag about it.

Goodnight

You are incorrect, and you don't pay attention to details. I specifically said that I have all the empathy in the world for the Classic American Liberal, who takes the view of a benign king and looks over the country and asks "does everyone have whatever they need to prosper?"..there should be a Classic American Liberal inside of all of us. But the new Godless Liberal is a horse of a different color, and they are using the Classic American Liberal as their cover.
It would be the same as if you came to me and said "You know, you are a conservative and I think you are religious, and you know, there are lot of pedophiles hiding in your group and as long as they are in your camp, I can't respect you."
And if I didn't say..."They are not my friends and if I see them I will run them out" then I wouldn't deserve to be respected.
So I say that to you, that if you hold up the flags of mass murderers, then you don't deserve to be respected. Who should be allowed into the conversation of civilized men? mass murders? pedophiles?

[DUNNO]

And another thing Clone. You talk about the mass murders in China, Russia and Cambodia like they are ancient history. In China it was estimated that between 45 million premature deaths attributable to the Great Leap Forward from 1958 to 1962.
In Cambodia, Pol Pot killed 20% of his people in 3 years, between 1976-1979.
And you want to depict that as "dragging up the past'? You and I were both alive during these massacres.
I say you lack perspective. Do you really believe it is a good thing for young Americans to be quoting these histories as an ideal or for you to be offering China's prosperity as an example that America should consider?

[cletus1]

This thread, like almost all Left/Right political discussion threads turns into an accusation by a conservative (in this case Dunno) to link liberals to communism. It happens on this forum all the time. Clone touches on the real point, but that is ignored so that we can compare her thinking to Pol Pot's, Mao's, Stalin's or any other historical personality that has killed lots of their own people. It is like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a screaming preacher. The anarchism aspect of the discussion, at least from my perspective is mostly a recognition of what can happen when people cannot buy food or get what they need to live. IMO, anarchism is not likely to become widespread not even temporarily, We will become more like a third world country instead.

Anyway, the point, the real point that I think Clone was making is that predatory capitalism often results in societies of the very rich and the very poor. And that the occupy movement even with all their faults at least sees that happening here in America.

There are, like Clone pointed out, countries where the government has better social safety nets in place to protect its citizens. It is a fact, that in those countries people often have a better quality of life. They are not being sucked dry by healthcare costs and therefore have more disposable income. It is also however, more entertaining for some of our conservatives to log on and scream socialism, or Obama’s a socialist, or America will become a socialist country over my dead body……This sometimes happens right after they get home from cashing their unemployment check, or returning from a visit to the Veteran's Hospital or seeing their doctor that accepts Medicare because they are on Social Security and don’t have a lot of money.

Oh, and they still don't like Jane Fonda. Talk about Dinosaurs.

[bbqboy]

you forgot eugenics.

[cletus1]

you forgot eugenics.

Oops I did. Here is a tidbit of information that I find interesting: "The Immigration Restriction League was the first American entity associated officially with eugenics." I guess all that's left over from the Eugenics movement are the anti immigration Republicans that don't want to pollute "American" culture with Mexican culture.

[Scrapper]

You know you positions are ridiculous.

What on Earth makes you feel that you have the right to say that to another person? It doesn't matter what you think of someones positions. Someone believes your positions are ridiculous. So what? You are rude. You should be embarrassed of yourself. It is so clear why you love your precious HamSammich. :wacko:

[Scrapper]

FOLLOW CLONE...BORN YESTERDAY..UTOPIA THIS WAY>>>

Further proof.

[Scrapper]

Were you in a coma for 40 years?

And more. :wacko:

[bbqboy]

You know you positions are ridiculous.

What on Earth makes you feel that you have the right to say that to another person? It doesn't matter what you think of someones positions. Someone believes your positions are ridiculous. So what? You are rude. You should be embarrassed of yourself. It is so clear why you love your precious HamSammich. :wacko:

Actually,I would venture that most think her positions ridiculous.
Especially the little old black ladies in Detroit.

[Scrapper]

You know you positions are ridiculous. Did you actually miss the last 100 years of history? I am not sure that actually being able to evaluate the last 100 years of history and the attending history of anarchism can be considered an "instant reaction" Russians starved in the streets under Marxism that came about through anarchism. The first in line to take hold of the government of Russia after the Tsar was deposed were the Mensheviks. I bet you never heard of them. That is because they were pulled down by the Bolsheviks who were anarchists. They sure delivered.
Then there was Mao and the 45 million he killed in 4 years. Did you miss history that day?

Why do you think you are so superior you can call me ridiculous and resort to calling me uneducated?

YOU are the one who always takes this all the way back to Russia and China and speak of the horrors of those regimes.

Do you, oh Ms. Pain in the Butt, Ms. Disrespectfrul truly feel the residents of Norway, Sweden, France, etc. are in danger of a Menshevick takeover?

They freely hold elections on a regular basis. They choose who leads them. The citizens get a living wage and have free medical care.

Is this why you always want to go back in history to the pain and suffering?

You can't admit that most of the industrialized world is now operating under a form of socialism and are happy about it? Their children are educated; they have affordable day care.

America is sucking hind tit; the jobs are coming back from China because Americans are now desperate enough to work for minimum wage.

How anyone can be aware of what is happening here and still preach that the Occupiers have to be beat down is not thinking clearly.

As far as I can tell, all of us here on RVF ARE the 99%

Iceland threw out the banks and their credit rating is already back up.

There ARE solutions.

And you, missy, need to take a good look in the mirror. You are the one who is started a Reply with saying my position is ridiculous and that I have no sense of history. But, I know, you're playing to the crowd...

So so true!

[Scrapper]

Cletus... thank you for attempting to add some sanity to this mess that DUNNO has created.

[orygunluvr]

This thread, like almost all Left/Right political discussion threads turns into an accusation by a conservative (in this case Dunno) to link liberals to communism. It happens on this forum all the time. Clone touches on the real point, but that is ignored so that we can compare her thinking to Pol Pot's, Mao's, Stalin's or any other historical personality that has killed lots of their own people. It is like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a screaming preacher. The anarchism aspect of the discussion, at least from my perspective is mostly a recognition of what can happen when people cannot buy food or get what they need to live. IMO, anarchism is not likely to become widespread not even temporarily, We will become more like a third world country instead.

Anyway, the point, the real point that I think Clone was making is that predatory capitalism often results in societies of the very rich and the very poor. And that the occupy movement even with all their faults at least sees that happening here in America.

There are, like Clone pointed out, countries where the government has better social safety nets in place to protect its citizens. It is a fact, that in those countries people often have a better quality of life. They are not being sucked dry by healthcare costs and therefore have more disposable income. It is also however, more entertaining for some of our conservatives to log on and scream socialism, or Obama’s a socialist, or America will become a socialist country over my dead body……This sometimes happens right after they get home from cashing their unemployment check, or returning from a visit to the Veteran's Hospital or seeing their doctor that accepts Medicare because they are on Social Security and don’t have a lot of money.

Oh, and they still don't like Jane Fonda. Talk about Dinosaurs.

http://www.perspectiveone.com/rebuttal-t...ialism.asp

A Rebuttal to the Praise of Scandinavian Socialism

5/12/2012. PORTLAND, Oregon.

Norway and Sweden used to top the list as nations with the highest per capita production in the world. Today, neither is strictly a socialist state, but rather advanced welfare states. Norway is more heavily taxed than the average democratic country, and Sweden is the most taxed of all democratic countries.

Socialism creates dependency, not independence. It gradually reduces the standard of living and guts individual initiative and the entrepreneurial spirit. Traditionally self-employed farmers, Scandinavians are now primarily consumers, not creators, inventors, innovators, or researchers. Since the mid-1900's, they have been consuming more than they create, both individually, on average, and as a whole nation. (This is the strongest indictment a capitalist can assert.)

Scandinavian nations have never had to sustain the economic cost of a military fully capable of national defense. Foreign policy among Scandinavian/Nordic nations can be characterized as capitulation and appeasement. Scandinavian countries converted to socialist welfare states in response to growing pressure from neighboring Communist Soviet Union. They exported resources to the Axis during World War II to remain "neutral" and avoid full out war. The United States and England footed the bill for routing Hitler.

Socialism has improved the quality of life of Scandinavia's bottom quartile of society, out of the pockets of the other three quartiles: the poorest families in Scandinavia are as poor as the poorest families in the USA, but the wealthiest families in Scandinavia are 22% poorer than the wealthiest families in the USA.

Nobody argues that optimal care for the poor begins with a vibrant private-sector based economy. The question enters as to whether the private sector or the government is responsible for distributing that care. A second question enters as to whether socialism is actually the equivalent of a nationwide Ponzi scheme (think about that for a minute).

Capitalism has been the driving force behind all the significant innovations that have improved the quality of human life over the past two centuries. Capitalism rewards productive individuals. Socialism rewards non-productive individuals. Capitalism offers equal opportunities to create (incentive to work more). Socialism offers equal provisions to consume (incentive to work less).

Today, Scandinavian countries are beginning to cut taxes, encourage capitalism, and invest heavily in education and research. They have permitted, then encouraged, the development of joint ventures and establishment of multinational corporations, such as IKEA, Volvo (owned by Ford), Electrolux, etc., thru tax breaks, streamlined bureaucracy, and eased regulations.
Specific to Norway

It's frequently pointed out that the typical middle class farmer in Norway drives a Mercedes. But that's in spite of, not because of, socialism. Everyone in Norway gets thousands of dollars a year for free in payouts for exports from the North Sea oilfields. Norway is the third largest oil exporter in the world (thus their reputation as "the blue eyed sheiks"). Besides, most Mercedes outside the USA are stripped down models, without the luxury accouterments of the American showroom and with lower costs to import.

Norway adopted social welfare as a foreign policy tool, because of it's proximity to the former USSR. They successfully headed off capitalism by capitulating to a socialistic economy in return for maintaining a democratic government. They also sold iron to the Nazi's during World War II in order to placate them.

Norway employs thousands of economic "police" officers who enforce comical rules to oppress an individual's desire for gain or profit, harassing families who own or attempt to start businesses. Even to the point of the ridiculous: No toilet flushing after 10 pm.
Specific to Sweden

Sweden's productivity is among the lowest of advanced industrialized countries. If Sweden were a U.S. state, it would be the poorest in the nation. The Swede's have a per capita income that is 69% of America's. In Sweden, if you are poor, you are as poor as an American; if you are rich, you only make 10% more than the median American family.

Sweden's last war was in 1814 against Norway. Their economy has been uninterrupted since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, yet their per capita GDP is well below countries who have dealt with extreme external and internal economic pressures during the same period.

Sweden sports a cradle-to-grave economic welfare system, licensed sex workers, and atrocious marriage statistics (worse than the USA). Initially, a strong work and family ethic of the northern European peoples allowed them to tolerate re-distributionism; Swedes would continue to work and form families even though the fiscal rewards were modest. But within the last two generations, work ethic and family values have declined significantly, causing costs to rise and individual productivity to decline. Today, a typical middle class family lives in a small apartment in a community of high rises (ever wonder why IKEA sports efficient storage?), with one car for the whole family, and a very scaled down lifestyle. While you're checking on standards of living in Sweden, be sure you also compare suicide rates compared to free enterprise nations.

In 1970 Sweden had the third highest per capita GDP on the planet. Today, they're 40th and trending down (but hey, they do have nationalized health insurance!). In the 1980's, Sweden's government permitted unions to grow almost unchecked, placing a burden on nearly every industry in the country. Today, Sweden's economy is growing again, attributed to lower taxes and the successful investments and partnerships of multinational corporations.
Specific to Switzerland

The Swiss have a reputation for efficiency and excellent design, but only in their private sector. Not so their socialist government. Socialism and government bureaucracy must arrive hand-in-hand, as it's impossible to manage the personal finances for everyone in your country without layers of reviewers, approvers, and rule-makers.

The bureaucracy required to sustain socialist stands in the way of progress - even compassionate, life-giving progress. For example, Ingo Potrykus is a Swiss scientist who helped invent Golden Rice. Hundreds of millions of people in Asia and Africa suffer from vitamin A deficiency. Among them, half a million children lose their eyesight each year, and millions more suffer from lesser symptoms. Golden Rice has the potential to greatly reduce the suffering, because it infuses the rice with beta-carotene, the precursor to Vitamin A, in the form of the gene that makes daffodils yellow. Potrykus has a commercial variety of Golden Rice available for planting, but it will be at least five years before Golden Rice will be able to work its way through the byzantine regulatory system that is Switzerland's socialist health care system. So another 2.5 million children will probably go blind as that government delays the release of a new, healthier kind of RICE!
Other Nations

Consider other socialist/communist nations: Cuba, China, former USSR, North Korea, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, Cambodia, all of the -stans and most -ia's in Eastern Europe such as Albania, former Yugoslavia, etc. The socialist experiment failed in the 20th century. Each of these countries live on the edge of starvation. Their GDP per capita are among the lowest in the world. Standards of living have declined every year as socialism grew.

Don't blame Cuba's woes on U.S. embargo policies. Cayman Islands sport 500,000 tourists per year. Cuba hosts four times as many (for socialists: that's 2,000,000) tourists per year from countries other than the United States. Caymans' freedom from taxation and strict banking privacy laws has resulted in a banking system that is larger and far more profitable and stable than California's. Cuba's taxation and socialist policies have bankrupt their once thriving agricultural, financial, and tourist industries.

India's national leaders were all socialists at their independence. India has tremendous intellectual resources which have only really begun to develop since it shook off the bureaucratic socialism inherited from the Brits in the 1940's.

Socialist and communist economies lead to closed systems. People are generally prohibited from leaving communist countries; surrendering any personal freedom to the government leads inevitably to the loss of additional, more significant personal freedoms. A sacrifice or large risk is necessary then to regain that freedom that was original surrendered - pay to keep freedom now, or pay to regain freedom later... but you will pay.

[bbqboy]

you're not supposed to copy and paste entire copyrighted pieces under the new site rules.

[Snowlover]

Ah, Ms. Emma...so ahead of her time.



“Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.”
? Emma Goldman, Anarchism and Other Essays

As long as they don't 'take' it from you.